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2NL TT vs UTG+1 limper

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  • 2NL TT vs UTG+1 limper

    Is this spewy or borderline okay?

  • #2
    OTR – You turned your TT to a bluff, usually you don’t want to turn made hands to a bluff. Fish don’t fold to a bluff if they have any hand – he limped = most likely a fish, have a hand = he raised. Your raising size is too large for a value, had you raised to say 0.18 also might 99 call -> light value raise, if you feel that he does not have Qx.

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    • #3
      Braveslice pretty much nailed this - this river bet is really spewy.

      I liked the way you played this until the river. Your hand has very good showdown value, you are only losing to Qx or some weird two-pair/straight. You are beating all other one-pair hands which make up the majority of villain's range.

      Therefore you should just call his small bet and see who has the best hand.

      By betting, you are value-owning yourself and forcing the villain to play optimally. Villain is going to fold worse and call/raise with better, which is exactly the opposite of what you want to happen.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by IBNash View Post
        Is this spewy or borderline okay?
        Can you explain what you're trying to achieve with the raise? How does villain react with each part of his range, do you think?
        Bracelet Winner

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        • #5
          Hi Nash,

          Spewy. All fine up to the river, but raising is not going to get a Q to fold, and is not likely to get called by worse (maybe 9x calls if the villain is super bad, but it's too thin). He could be betting small on the river as a silly bluff with a busted draw, or a weaker 1 pair hand, but there's little value to be gained by raising him, only value to be given to his Qx hands I think.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
            Can you explain what you're trying to achieve with the raise? How does villain react with each part of his range, do you think?
            Good questions to ask, to evaluate this hand yourself Nash. umbup:
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            • #7
              Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
              Can you explain what you're trying to achieve with the raise? How does villain react with each part of his range, do you think?
              I simply did not put villain on a Q and thought I was raising for value. Would you have had the same opinion had I not posted the hand results? I thought I was ahead, I was wrong.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by IBNash View Post
                Would you have had the same opinion had I not posted the hand results?
                I paused the hand before the software showed villain's hand so I didn't know what he had

                Originally posted by IBNash View Post
                I simply did not put villain on a Q... I thought I was ahead, I was wrong.
                What about the hand made you think he didn't have a Q? Let's go through all the information we have step-by-step.

                Preflop - V limps from EP and calls a raise. He could be doing this with a crazy wide range.

                Flop - V checks to the raiser - this doesn't narrow down his range at all.

                Turn - V has seen us check and bets 40% pot. Again this doesn't really narrow down his range much as he might be bluffing because we have shown weakness or be betting for value with almost any hand you can think of, I wouldn't even rule out 72 here!

                River - V bets 1/4 pot. This gives us some more information - he probably doesn't have a monster (otherwise the bet would've been bigger) but he could again be bluffing or betting for value (yes some players do try to bluff with insanely small bets)

                When I first saw the hand I had no idea what V was holding. I think Q2 is just as likely as A6o or 98 that just got there on the river.

                Originally posted by IBNash View Post
                I thought I was raising for value.
                There are several components to value betting and the bet sizing associated with it:
                • What is our hand strength compared to the opponent's likely range?
                • Is the villain allergic to folding?
                • What worse hands can we get to call?


                I have no idea what villain's range is and he probably doesn't like to fold. Therefore I would consider going for some thin value but not with a hand as weak as TT, which after all is only second pair on a connected board where straight and two pair combinations are very possible.

                Also with your large bet size, if he is only holding 9x, even a calling station might be concerned and fold.

                Therefore I think any value bet is a large mistake but if you are going to value bet, you needed to value bet small in order to try get 9x to call. Think about what you want villain to call with when choosing how much to bet.

                Don't forget that if you're value betting you don't want him to fold. If you want him to fold better hands - that's called bluffing. Your hand in this spot is too strong to turn into a bluff.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by IBNash View Post
                  I simply did not put villain on a Q and thought I was raising for value. Would you have had the same opinion had I not posted the hand results? I thought I was ahead, I was wrong.
                  If you'd not posted the results, I'd still think it's spew. You have 2nd pair on a somewhat wet board. Much of the time villain has one pair. Qx beats you, 9c and worse doesn't, but how do the worse hands react to a raise on the river? To make a good raise for value, you need villain to call with worse pretty often. I don't think villain is calling with worse on this board very often at all, so you're just valueowning yourself. If nothing worse calls, don't raise!
                  The idea here is that you have showdown value. You beat some of villain's range and you lose to some of it. Your hand is miles away from the nuts, so can't get called by worse very often. Therefore, with showdown value, you should just call and see if you win at showdown.
                  Bracelet Winner

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
                    If you'd not posted the results, I'd still think it's spew. You have 2nd pair on a somewhat wet board. Much of the time villain has one pair. Qx beats you, 9c and worse doesn't, but how do the worse hands react to a raise on the river? To make a good raise for value, you need villain to call with worse pretty often. I don't think villain is calling with worse on this board very often at all, so you're just valueowning yourself. If nothing worse calls, don't raise!
                    The idea here is that you have showdown value. You beat some of villain's range and you lose to some of it. Your hand is miles away from the nuts, so can't get called by worse very often. Therefore, with showdown value, you should just call and see if you win at showdown.
                    You're right, it is spew. I was on tilt when I played it and re raised it with 0 rational reasons. I think it was on the lines of "no chance he's beating me, I'm sure he doesn't have a Q".
                    I keep going back to:

                    Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
                    Take a break.

                    Seriously.

                    ... results-oriented thinking is clouding your judgement. Variance can do strange things to a player's mind. If it can make you lose perspective about something as simple as pre-flop hand strength, you need to take a break. QQ is a monster. Play it like one.

                    I should take that break, for real.

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