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    Both players are unknowns, seen as the BB called my 3bet OOP and he never knew what the UTG was going to do i put him on TT+AQs+ UTG i thought he could have AQs+ and PP, what would be a good range of hands to flat in UTG seat here? Should we be flatting with some suited broadways? I said i dint have reads because i never had a hud on but looking at my hud on pt4 i have actually got some numbers. UTG is 22/16/5/77/3 ( vpip pfr 3bet 3bet fold AF over 100 hands) BB 32/29/21/50/9 (150 hands) Quick question about ranging here i would normally go with a range based on position and the guy closing the action to have a wider range, but with these stats what range would you give them then? I had a little calculation some where i wrote down to work out someones 3bet calling range using vpip and 3bet fold i think it was. Can someone tell me what it was i lost my note somehow. Edit: Ive just looked through my database of big pairs thinking i was gonna find a load of losing hands and it turns out i havent got many, just 5 or 6 losses in a row here and there, it seems every time i been raised on a low flop ive ran into a smaller over pair quite alot and when players have kept flatting my bets they turn over sets.
    Last edited by mike2198; Fri Dec 06, 2013, 03:53 PM.

  • #2
    Hi Mike,

    I agree I would tend to put the BB on a pretty strong range cold calling our 10x 3b from out of position, unless he's a fish but you were playing him as an unknown so strong hand is a good assumption. UTG probably called here because he's getting almost 3.5-1, closing the action, and has a hand that plays well enough multi-way. Your formula based on stats for 3b calling range wouldn't have applied here for either villain due to the situation.

    With the low stack to pot ratio, I would have stacked off the AA here as well. The only big concern from V3 imo is TT, but they can be committing here with JJ-KK and flush draws as well. The same applies to V4 although maybe 77 is also in his range. And that's not including if either of them would stack off just top pair, which fishy players might. So while it's not exactly a fist pumping spot imo, it is a +EV stack off without reads.
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    • #3
      So i got that one right then im assuming he flatted here with JTs because its multiway is that fine to flat with those types of hands multiway closing the action?, i normally wont flat a 3bet IP with suited broadways (say like i open the BU and BB 3 bets) unless he was 3 betting with a wide range which means im never doing it at 5nl and i haven't played much of 10nl.

      As for the BB in this hand that range i assigned him i wouldnt even flat there with QQ would you say im to tight calling 3bets? The reason i wouldnt flat QQ is because i dont believe anyone is 3betting JJ in my seat here vs utg so i would just fold and watch the hand play out.

      That calculation i guess your saying it wont work because its multiway and will only be a rough estimation HU anyway but what was it?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by mike2198 View Post
        So i got that one right then im assuming he flatted here with JTs because its multiway is that fine to flat with those types of hands multiway closing the action?,
        It depends on if we think we can do so profitably... which depends on depth of money behind, opponent types, reads etc. Not saying it was good or bad in this spot, just speculating as to why he might reason it was good. Of course it could have just been as simple as JTs is his favorite hand too. lol

        That calculation i guess your saying it wont work because its multiway and will only be a rough estimation HU anyway but what was it?
        The calc you were probably using was PRF%, taking out 4b% from the top of that range (the hands we'd expect them to 4b) and fold to 3b from the bottom of that range (the hands they fold), leaving a 3b call range (hands they think are too weak to 4b, but too strong to fold).

        You have to be very careful using an estimate like this....remember that the %'s are an average over all positions and situations, the ranges and %'s change depending on who's in the pot, what position, sizings, etc. Maybe this would make a nice strategy segment blog entry, going into some detail.

        Formula wouldn't work here because fold to 3b counts for times a player voluntarily puts $ in then folds to a 3b (usually raise/folds pre), the BB hasn't done that so his fold to 3b % doesn't apply. Likewise neither does UTG's as the fact that it's multi-way might impact his calling range in a way we can't define without reads.
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        • #5
          I see, yh i would like to see how you use stats to work out players ranges in 3bet pots it would make for much easier plays postflop if i knew exactly what range of hands i was up against, i mean you have 3bet fold which tells you i can 3bet someone light or for value with a wider range but it dont say he calls with this range of hands or that range of hands.

          I know you can get reads by watching showdowns and what not and i do but it would be nice to have stats and your notes to see how good the information your getting actually is.

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