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  • QQ

    Open raiser is a fish, villain on my right i have no reads on. So i 3bet my QQ pre cbet the flop and get min raised, what are we doing going with our hand calling or folding?

  • #2
    Hi Mike,

    V1's play is consistent with small pockets that have now flopped a set. We have shown great strength, and it's a multi-way pot, so his raise looks very strong in this spot, like 100% hands he's willing to stack off. That would be sets, and maybe huge draws like AhQh/AhKh. If we go with this hand, we are basically hoping he's got 88-JJ in his range, but I think that's too optimistic generally because A) raising a hand like TT would be horrible in his spot, and B) if he chose to just flat all action pre with those holdings, I wouldn't expect him to raise now with the strength we've shown in a 3 way pot. And on top of all that, the fish hasn't gone away yet either... he can have hands in his range like 88-JJ, but he can also have extremely high equity hands against us (like sets he's slowplaying or 56s that flopped gin), and hands that have good equity like big draws, 8h7h, Ah5h and the like (you don't say what kind of fish so don't know if he'd raise a big draw or just call).

    On balance, I think this is a spot we should get away from. Sometimes we'll be folding the best hand, it happens, but I think we are very unlikely to be a favorite when all the money goes in here given the nature of the situation.
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    • #3
      So basically just because i can never have 56 here and sets given the preflop action im making the mistake of thinking nobody else can and stacking off, the loose passive fish folded and the BU had 56o, im seeing this alot in 3bet pots actually and im losing quite abit of money with big pairs either all in pre ahead or like on the flop.

      If it was a single raised pot and say im the one raising 1st in i would muck my hand on the turn vs unknown and fold on the flop vs a passive player, would you still stack off on a low flop vs an unknown if the straight wasnt possible yet?
      Last edited by mike2198; Thu Dec 05, 2013, 11:51 PM.

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      • #4
        He flats a 3x open in position playing 142bb effective. All small pairs ok. Then you 3b and the fish calls. So now he can call and close the action, seeing the flop in position, for .46c more. There's 1.45 in the middle and you have another 5.21 behind to win with a probable big pair, so he has implied odds from you of 14.5-1, plus a potential customer in the fish. I would be seeing the flop here with small pairs in the button's shoes for sure.

        56 is a bit thinner and harder to see, but sets are not, even a tight player can show up with sets here in V1's spot imo.
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        • #5
          Yh your right i would actually have sets in the BU seat as well just not in the guy who opened seat, il have to stop stacking off so light then in 3bet pots, i am right alot of the time and do see over pairs i beat and i can see on the flop theres a ton of hands that beat me or have monster draws but i seem to think because its a 3bet pot i can eliminate some hands.

          I can easily fix that leak and il have to just fold in future, im going to post some more big pair hands in 3bet pots that ive played before this hand here to see how ive played them.

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          • #6
            I haven’t been able to fix that leak for me. I think its because the pot is large, with 3bet my adrenaline is up, and also because NL2 that move was (most of the time) an overpair.

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            • #7
              In a heads up pot, I'd be stacking off on this flop, because villain will have more overpairs in his stack-off range. Multiway, though, he had implied odds to call with speculative hands (e.g. small pairs), and he's showing strength against 2 players, so a set or 65 is more likely.
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