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Zoom, calling a 3bet shove from short & midstackers

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  • Zoom, calling a 3bet shove from short & midstackers

    In this hand I decided to call and setmine because V6 was a reg who folded a lot to 3bets PF but didn't like to fold on later streets. And then I got a shove from midstack regular who is aggro PF and is capable of doing it light. Regardless of result, was this a good call and what should be a minimum hand strenght to make this kind of call against a shortstacker or someone with full stack without a strong read. Maybe it's possible to get a live training session about playing against shortstackers as this was basically a tilt call because of them.
    Last edited by MintDeal; Sun Dec 01, 2013, 05:51 PM.

  • #2
    Hi Mint,

    I would generally just fold vs. a 64bb shove here, but I think it's pretty close with TT. If you think he's shoving wide then calling off is fine. For this price our break even point is 46.8% equity.

    If he's shoving a range of 99+, AJs+, AQo+, then our equity with TT is just under 45%. Here's some other hands and their equity vs. that range:

    JJ: 50.6%
    QQ: 58.6%
    AKo: 49.8%
    AQs: 40.7%
    99: 38.4%

    This should give you some idea. The wider they are shoving, the wider we can call off but generally it's ok to call off a bit tighter than you might otherwise think vs. these guys.
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    • #3
      Thank You Dave,

      I usually fold here also and call QQ+ and thought myself that this call was horrific. Now looking back, I should have 3bet pre, having a squeeze happy medium stack behind me. And then already 5bet shove against his almost 10% 4bet range with less than 50% premium on SD over 2K hands.

      Now I can hope that maybe as 4tabling regular, he has a note on me, that I'm able to call off his shove light and will tighten up his range. As I have note on him, that I did it and next time I won't do it so weak. Or maybe it's too much to hope from 10NL.

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      • #4
        I would rarely fold here with TT. I've seen them showup with enough junk that I believe you'll be +EV to call.

        It's also very rarely KK or AA.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by birdayy View Post
          It's also very rarely KK or AA.
          I'm actually seeing this player type take the overbet shove line with their AA/KK hands all the time. No it doesn't make sense, but they do it often enough that I can't agree with this statement.
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          • #6
            ^^ Just from my experiences Dave.

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            • #7
              I don't always agree with birdayy, but this one I do By just calling a raise, it looks like we want to see a flop, so the small blind shoves to scare us away. 1) I often see the small blind do this 2) If he did have AA, KK or even QQ, for value betting, he would 3Bet to about $1. Shoving will only get him $0.60 if they all fold, not really good value for those cards. 3) So often a player will shove AK, AQ thinking they can have us fold with 50% winner 4) any pocket pairs will beat AK, AQ in % pre flop Maybe at higher stakes, you see these less often (but they do exist), so I'll be calling every time. PS. Good call Mint umbup:

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              • #8
                sorry dave with sand on this 1 n call mintumbup:

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                • #9
                  Don't be sorry... even I said it's close and I've assigned a much tighter range than birdayy or sandtrap. If you think the villain is shoving a bunch of junk, and not shoving QQ-AA, then of course you should (fist pump) call. I've no disagreement with that, I'm simply not tracking with the ranging.
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                  • #10
                    Hey Dave,

                    Few little question
                    If you were in the SB position with AA or KK, wouldn't you play it for value? I don't think you would shove. So, how do YOU determine a range of a player? What would be some of your criteria in this case with no info? (stack size? position? regular player? etc)
                    Would you of 3Bet with TT?

                    Thanks

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
                      Hey Dave,

                      Few little question
                      If you were in the SB position with AA or KK, wouldn't you play it for value? I don't think you would shove. So, how do YOU determine a range of a player? What would be some of your criteria in this case with no info? (stack size? position? regular player? etc)
                      Would you of 3Bet with TT?

                      Thanks
                      No, I think jamming with AA/KK is not optimal, but I wouldn't be playing a 64bb stack either so I expect such a player to probably be doing sub-optimal things:
                      Originally posted by TheLangolier View Post
                      I'm actually seeing this player type take the overbet shove line with their AA/KK hands all the time. No it doesn't make sense, but they do it often enough that I can't agree with this statement.
                      Regarding 3-betting TT, obviously it's situational... here vs this opener as described I think flatting with TT in position is the clear best play.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheLangolier View Post
                        I'm actually seeing this player type take the overbet shove line with their AA/KK hands all the time. No it doesn't make sense, but they do it often enough that I can't agree with this statement.
                        At my experiences at 10NL - the few times you get to see what these 50BB all-in junkies have, it is normally the lower end of what might be called "premium" e.g. 99-QQ, AJs-AK. However there is a fair bit of complete junk and a significant number of AA and KK also that I have seen.

                        I always take a note when I see someone 3Bet shove - if they are doing this regularly then it is probably fair to assume that they are not doing it with AA or KK all the time.

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