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am i donk again or just nothing to do about it?

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  • am i donk again or just nothing to do about it?

  • #2
    You don't say anything about the other people in the hand.

    Is player one known to spew?

    You don't really have the odds to set-mine though you are at the more aggressive end of the set-mining zone. I don't hate the call pre-flop but I think by shoving on the flop you are only getting called by hands that beat you most of the time such as sets, though I didn't see him as having that hand, I kind of thought he had a better overpair to yours.

    I think we can call on the flop, though the pot is getting big, and if we call we have to decide whether we are committing if the turn is a blank too.

    When you shoved what did you think he had?


    • #3
      Hi GayLooser!

      I agree with bhoylegend. JJ can be tough to play post flop, especially since we so often encounter overcards. Here you are in bad position in the small blind. Moreover you don't have any reads on either villain. Do you expect V6 to call behind improving your implied odds? Do you expect V6 to 4bet putting you in a very bad spot? Or will he fold? I lean toward folding preflop at 2NL and just waiting for a better spot. If you were in position and/or last to act preflop then we might be able to call.

      As played, you flop an overpair which is good. But now we can really see why being out of position is a problem. Readless, I would not expect him to be 3betting pf with 45, 67, or 89. So presumably he has a pocket pair or two facecards. Most of these hands will call a flop bet which gains you value. Plus, you need to protect your hand against potential overcards on the turn. We don't want to give him a free card if he has AK or something. These are good arguements for leading out with a bet on the flop. However, if he raises then we have a problem. His line looks super strong. He 3b preflop and now raises a dry flop. It looks like he either flopped a set or has a premium overpair. We are only beating 88, 99, and 1010 but losing to QQ, KK, AA as well as 22, 66 and 77. Thus we get a bet-fold situation here. If he calls our bet, then it is more likely he has AK, two overcards or a pocket pair that we are actually beating. Although he might be slowplaying us on this dry flop as well.

      As played, you check-raised the flop with a huge raise. This does get you value owned since only the hands beating you will typically call. I normally raise about 2. the bet. If we expect him to c-bet with AK type hands then we might be able to call the flop bet then reevaluate on the turn. If he slows down you may be ahead. If he fires another bullet, then his range is pretty much QQ+ and sets. Note, if you raised big to protect your overpair, then I think leading out on the flop would have been better because it removes the option for the villain to check behind.

      Position and lack of reads makes this hand awkward postflop. We don't have a good line unless we flop a set and end up playing a big pot with just a pair. Therefore, folding preflop would be the safest route.

      Finally: I hope you put a note on V1 that he 3b pf with 66!
      I hope this helps. GL and have fun at the tables!

      Roland GTX


      • #4
        i would like to see u , how u will play with my "running" , like u saying that this is always fold situation and that by reraising u will only get called by worse...
        if u gonna fold every time, and wait for hitting set only... then u gonna outfold your stack by smaller sizes anyway.... and when u will finally hit your set, u wont get paid off .... so show me how u gonna do profit...

        it was zoom, no info on villain, as said he could have 88,99 any two big cards, by checking i let him bluff in pot , but with JJ i want to get it in on the flop, since turn/rvr can come Q K A ... so thats why i reraised allin to protect + get value from worse, and at these stakes u will often get value from worse...
        i just always get beat.... as shown here, i was preflop ahead.... when i hit set, someone has higher set, if i dont have set, then its even bigger "fold situation" as u guys said.... so show me how to make profit....


        • #5
          Originally posted by GayLooser View Post
          i would like to see u , how u will play with my "running" , like u saying that this is always fold situation and that by reraising u will only get called by worse...
          No one is saying this is an "always fold" situation.
          There are two reasonably good lines you can take on the flop. You can lead out with a donkbet to seize the initiative and to fold out some hands that have equity against you (e.g. AK), with the idea being that you should fold if you get raised. I'm not a fan of the donk-fold line, because it's kind of like betting for information. The only information you'll get is useless information. Villain will fold when you have him beat (so you get no value), but he'll raise when he has QQ+ or a set, so you don't gain anything with this line.
          The alternative line is to simply check to the pre-flop aggressor and call his bet. He will be c-betting his entire range on this flop. You beat some of that range (overcards and small overpairs) and lose to some of it (sets and big overpairs). You're in a "way ahead or way behind" spot, and the way to deal with that is by keeping the pot small, checking and calling, not betting and raising. If you just call the flop bet, the villain is unlikely to bet the turn unless he has you beat, because your calls pre-flop and on the flop indicate you have a hand. He won't keep bluffing with AK if he doesn't make a pair. You can therefore make a fairly easy fold if villain fires a second barrel, but if he checks behind on the turn, you can lead the river for value.

          The whole problem with check-raising is that you immediately find out if you are way ahead or way behind. If you're way ahead, villain snap folds and you lose any additional value. If you're way behind, he snap-calls and takes your stack. You're value-cutting yourself and you're making your opponent play perfectly, when you really want him to make mistakes.

          I appreciate that running into coolers like set over set can be brutal, but it seems from the tone of your post that it's affecting you emotionally, and affecting your decisions, so I would recommend that you take a break. If you want to keep losing your stack, then check-shoving when you're only getting called by better hands is just going to magnify the problem. In Zoom games in particular, you should be much more careful about getting your stack in the middle. The nits at 2NL zoom are practically looking for reasons to fold when they miss the flop, so it's hard to get paid when you have a monster. You can't force it by jamming on them. When they hit their two outers, you've got to be able to get away from one pair hands, or at least limit your losses. In a game filled with nitty set-miners, you should assign villains with strong ranges when they bet and avoid paying them off.

          Hope this helps, and I hope you start running better soon.
          Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Wed Oct 09, 2013, 05:19 PM.
          Bracelet Winner


          • #6
            yes its affecting me emotionally but most of the time it doesnt affect my game.... really i cant win a single big/medium spot... im like 90% always ahead or have monster hand, but i still lose by the river ... just crazy how often i m put in these spots... and im never letting them to get to river by checking (i m capable of fold if i checked flop/turn cuz he got free card and could get here etc...) ... but i have to make profit somehow so i cant just keep folding good hands...
            Last edited by GayLooser; Wed Oct 09, 2013, 07:23 PM.


            • #7
              Hi again GayLooser, I agree with Arty. We all have felt that frustration when getting coolered at 2NL. I found what works for me is trying to make all my profit postflop. In other words, stick to good starting hands/positions etc, but don't committ your stack unless you have a strong made hand postflop. By strong I mean a set or better. This approach saves me from pulling my hair out if my aces get cracked for example. Aces are the best starting hand, but try to view them as "just a pair" postflop. Since villains tend not to fold at 2NL, this approach is quite profitable. I simply focus on value betting my strong made hands. Top pair will often win, but I dont want to risk 100bbs on it. You can still c-bet, bet with top pair hands etc, but when the action gets too heavy you want to have a stronger hand than "just a pair" before risking everything. I played quite a bit of 2NL before summer and this style worked great for me. PS: If you are not able to take good notes on Zoom, you may be better off playing regular tables where you get to see all the action and have time to build up reads on the others at the table. GL and have fun at the tables!umbup: Roland GTX


              • #8
                it just makes me feel ultra stupid that i cant even beat 2NL.... i used to play much higher stakes up to 20NL before, but somehow i went bankrupt and got stuck at 2NL now i have played like 20 000 hands already in 2NL and still in red numbers... im just probably that bad or i dont know...


                • #9
                  It sounds like you need to work on your mental game a bit. I just read a good book by Jared Tendler, The Mental Game of Poker.

                  Also, this hand I just played a minute ago might make you feel better knowing you are not alone. We all get coolered. I made the right move, but got the wrong result. No stress

                  Roland GTX


                  • #10
                    I think the problem in this hand, was your all-in, WHY?

                    There's no reason to go all in, even someone with AKo could of called you. Going all in is definitely not for value because he could fold and you don't get no extra $$$. Since there are hands that could beat yours, why not build the pot?

                    Remember that at low stakes (even at high), some players don't mind to lose $2


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Roland GTX View Post
                      It sounds like you need to work on your mental game a bit. I just read a good book by Jared Tendler, The Mental Game of Poker. Also, this hand I just played a minute ago might make you feel better knowing you are not alone. We all get coolered. I made the right move, but got the wrong result. No stress Roland GTX
                      thanks roland, that hand of yours definitely made me feel better umbup: , as u lost 16$ here it reminded me of 3 days ago when i had session where i lost 16$ (8 stacks of 2NL)...was worst session of month or two i guess
                      Last edited by GayLooser; Fri Oct 11, 2013, 03:56 PM.


                      • #12
                        After someone raises and reraises, I actually prefer to just decide to go w/ my hand preflop or not. If I think I'm ahead then I would rather go all-in now to prevent free suckouts against you (such as the hand that happened). Plus you pick up a lot of chips if they both fold. If you think your behind, then just fold because it sucks if your opponent is doing this with worse like 99 or TT and he cbets an Ace high flop and you fold the best hand. It's best to get your money in while your equity is strong rather than make decisions postflop.
                        Last edited by nanonoko; Fri Apr 11, 2014, 03:56 AM.


                        • #13
                          At least you got nanonoko to review your hand. You're not running that bad, after all.



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