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KK 4BET OOP - Shove Pre?

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  • KK 4BET OOP - Shove Pre?

    Should I have shoved pre flop?
    Villain is somewhat of a maniac over a small sample, but I haven't been paying him much attention.

    Could I have done anything else post flop other than shove, I was kind of committed to the pot with half my stack in, so not much room to manoeuvre on further streets

    How else could I have played this hand.

    PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4:

    CO: 367 BB (VPIP: 34.95, PFR: 3.88, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 104)
    BTN: 130.5 BB (VPIP: 39.39, PFR: 15.15, 3Bet Preflop: 15.38, Hands: 33)
    SB: 78.5 BB
    BB: 113 BB (VPIP: 19.05, PFR: 19.05, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
    UTG: 209 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 9.52, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
    Hero (UTG+1): 101.5 BB
    MP: 45.5 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
    MP+1: 68.5 BB (VPIP: 17.39, PFR: 13.04, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 23)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kc Kd

    fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 3 BB, BTN raises to 11 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 44 BB, fold, BTN calls 33 BB

    Flop: (92.5 BB, 2 players) 2h 4s Js
    Hero bets 57.5 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 57.5 BB

    Turn: (207.5 BB, 2 players) Th

    River: (207.5 BB, 2 players) 7s

    Hero shows Kc Kd (One Pair, Kings) (Pre 82%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
    BTN shows Jc Jd (Three of a Kind, Jacks) (Pre 18%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)
    BTN wins 200 BB

  • #2
    Hi Mickl84,

    No, I would not shove preflop. tbh this sounds like a results oriented question which you may not be asking if he hadn't flopped a jack... it sounds like you're hinting at trying to make him fold pre because you lost.

    Given the limited read I doubt this guy is folding JJ anyway, but we don't want him to fold JJ when we have KK. And that's why shoving is generally not great on this depth of money, it gives villains a chance to play their hand perfectly and fold unless they have us beat. A more standard 4-bet sizing is much more likely to induce calling mistakes, and can also induce 5-betting mistakes. Look at the betting progression from the start... 1bb-3bb-11bb-101.5bb! It's a huge overbet, too big a jump. Villain is much less likely to make a calling mistake to this size action, and a 5-betting isn't even an option.

    In that same vein, your 4B sizing is too large imo. I think we can see this visually by looking at the progression again... 1bb-3bb-11bb-44bb, and you have 57.5bb behind. In general this sizing makes it clear you are committed to stacking off... i.e. you're never bluffing. Villains will make fewer calling and 5-betting mistakes still. With the knowledge you have a legit big hand, they can get away from some more marginal holdings they might call with (in general, granted this villain is really LAG so far and might make a fair bit of these calling mistakes anyway). And they will make far fewer 5-betting mistakes knowing you are not folding... it basically limits their 5-betting "mistakes" to coolers only, when they have QQ or AK and go with it pre.

    A more natural sizing and progression would look something like this: 1bb-3bb-11bb-24bb. This is a sizing villains will feel compelled to call with a lot of holdings we have crushed. It's hard to get away from pre. It also leaves doubt about our hand strength as we can still fold to a 5b jam, so we may induce more 5-betting mistakes (lighter value hands, and more confidence for the villain to bluff).

    It's 2NL, and villain is a weak LAG, so sizing a bit bigger for value in this spot is fine imo, but I'd probably make that around 28-30bb, not 44, so he's not scared to 5b jam without a premium but we'll still get all the calling mistakes from a guy like this at the same time with some extra value.

    As played, always jam this flop with only 57bb left and 92 in the pot already. He's not folding any pair. Just unlucky he hit his 2 outter, it happens.
    Head Live Trainer
    Check out my Videos

    4 Time Bracelet Winner


    • #3
      How would I be able to get away from the hand on the flop though, say if I made it to 25bb and he called making it 50bb(est) in total on the flop, I cbet 30bb and he comes over the top(Ive still got half of my stack in right?) Or am I hoping he comes over the top anyway, with a set or overs, because he's made a calling error pre flop in the first place?

      Does that make sense?


      • #4
        You can never get away from it on that flop.
        He might be playing that way with a flush draw, or put you on a flush draw and playing aggressively with any Jack.


        • #5
          You shouldn't be ever thinking about "How do I get away?" because you set up a stack to pot ratio that makes stacking off with an overpair the only good play. It's totally standard to get your money in post-flop with an overpair with the pot being bigger than your remaining stack. Indeed, it would be a mistake to contemplate folding. (Imagine folding on the flop, and then villain shows QQ or TT!).

          For more on this idea, see Dave's videos on commitment decisions, and stack to pot ratios (part 1 and 2).
          Bracelet Winner


          • #6
            Hey, these guys are right... it's important to not be results oriented. You set up a very profitable situation here, but you will not win 100% of the individual trials. You've got a spot where it's profitable to commit post flop, so when he shoves over your flop c-bet, you are realizing the full profit potential. Sometimes he'll show you JJ (but still you will hit a K once in a while). Sometimes he'll table TT (and usually won't hit). Or QQ. Or a flush draw. Or AQ making a move because he thinks you might fold AK (he's a LAG after all). Or AJ, or a small pocket. Get the money in, lose a few, likely win many more than you lose, and in the proverbial long run realize plenty of profit.
            Head Live Trainer
            Check out my Videos

            4 Time Bracelet Winner



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