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NL 25 Zoom: three street Checkraise bluffline with overs and backdoor draw

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  • NL 25 Zoom: three street Checkraise bluffline with overs and backdoor draw

    Hey me again, got out the big guns here vs a reggy looking villain: 124 hands / VPIP: 24 / PFR: 18 / AG: 2,2 Cbet Flop: 4 out of 4 times Cbet Turn: 2 out of 4 times I made myself a little checklist if I want to float light or raise light. Dry Flop, One and Done Villain, Overs as Hole cards, in position -> all favors floating Wet Flop, Barreling Villain, bottom pair or gutshot, out of postion -> all favors raising or check raising light so my checklist acutally favors floating here, but I raised anyway and went into barreling mode on low cards which complete some straightdraws but unfortunately not the heart draw. Imo the villains range is still pretty wide on every street, consisting mainly of Heart draws, Tx and overs and our range should look mainly like sets, gut shots that got there or missed heart draws.

  • #2
    I am not really qualified to comment but I will take a shot. Just a few questions though first: what are your stats and the villain's observation of you and what evidence do you have that the villain is bluffable?

    The villain's betting range is probably 9s+ and broadway suited cards, a ten is definitely in his range but when he calls your reraise on the flop the range definitely narrows. Your gutshots 24, 47, 79 seem to be a very wide pre calling range and it is debatable whether this is believable or not. When you half pot it on the turn it looks more like a flush draw and even more so when you do not put your full stack in on the river..

    And a lot of this is hypothetical anyway if the villain is the type that sticks to made hands post, you can three barrel from now to doomsday and they will never fold. It is certainly creative poker here but your opponent has to be able to think outside the box to be bluffed off his pair here. Maybe it is a case of the right type of play and just the wrong opponent.

    The hand analysers will hopefully be able to give a better answer.



    Edit: my ranging is way off, apologies for that!!
    Last edited by topthecat; Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:45 PM.


    • #3
      oops ... double post!!
      Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Jul 26, 2013, 03:48 PM.


      • #4
        Sounds like you were trying out a new line? Have you met TommyGun? He's just started taking shots at 25nl Zoom, and he's got a Time Vault thread with a lot of creative ideas: You know what I've been trying out lately, is reorganizing the hand history so the replayer show my hands from the villain's perspective. It's easier for me to see things in your hand from the villain's perspective by just looking at the hand as presented, but when it's our own hand maybe it's easier if we take that extra step?

        PokerStars Zoom Hand #101898930228: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2013/07/26 2:27:19 ET Table 'Hydra' 6-max Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: 11LOL11 ($38.43 in chips) Seat 2: XuanPin ($26.59 in chips) Seat 3: Odmincheg ($48.37 in chips) Seat 4: paciorety67 ($26.95 in chips) Seat 5: VladKramnik ($31.05 in chips) Seat 6: almigthybald ($25 in chips) XuanPin: posts small blind $0.10 Odmincheg: posts big blind $0.25 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to VladKramnik [Qh Qs] <--- added this paciorety67 has timed out while disconnected paciorety67: folds VladKramnik: raises $0.50 to $0.75 almigthybald: calls $0.75 11LOL11: folds XuanPin: folds Odmincheg: folds *** FLOP *** [6h Td 3h] VladKramnik: bets $1.25 almigthybald: raises $2.25 to $3.50 VladKramnik: calls $2.25 *** TURN *** [6h Td 3h] [5c] VladKramnik: checks almigthybald: bets $4.75 VladKramnik: calls $4.75 *** RIVER *** [6h Td 3h 5c] [8s] VladKramnik: checks almigthybald: bets $11.50 VladKramnik: calls $11.50 *** SHOW DOWN *** almigthybald: shows [Qd Jd] (high card Queen) VladKramnik: shows [Qh Qs] (a pair of Queens) VladKramnik collected $39.49 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $41.35 | Rake $1.86 Board [6h Td 3h 5c 8s] Seat 1: 11LOL11 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: XuanPin (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 3: Odmincheg (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 4: paciorety67 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: VladKramnik showed [Qh Qs] and won ($39.49) with a pair of Queens Seat 6: almigthybald showed [Qd Jd] and lost with high card Queen [/spoiler] Seems like nobody pays much mind to the flop at 10nl ... is it sort of the same at 25nl? So I was looking at the turn play in particular here too. Hope you find the change of perspective interesting! Or maybe not? PS Oh, it looks like Top and I were sort of posting at the same time - hi Top!!


        • #5
          Actually, looking at the hand from the villain's perspective, I'm wondering if maybe we'd get *more* out of a really tight villain by betting *less* on the turn (with a set, by playing it) as if it were a heart draw? Like I wonder if/when the villain would have folded if the turn raise had been larger?
          Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Jul 26, 2013, 09:12 PM. Reason: was thinking out loud again ... added words to try to make things more clear :D


          • #6
            Hi bald,

            Interesting that your preplan checklist suggests floating, since if I decided to continue on the flop that would be my preference here, with my plan being to bet if checked to on the turn, fold if he barrels and we don't improve (would fold the 5c), call again if we catch a Q or J, and raise if we turn a draw.

            Imo the villains range is still pretty wide on every street, consisting mainly of Heart draws, Tx and overs
            I disagree with this range, perhaps it was just a typo but he never has overs here, he folds those to our flop raise or turn barrel imo... he does however have all the over pairs, which is what his range is going to be mostly... strong 1 pair hands and a few flush draw combos. I don't think we are getting him off overpairs without bombing the river all in, and probably not even then as villains will talk themselves into us having nut hearts or a hand like JhTh that fails to improve, and look us up with their AT+.
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            • #7
              yeah that was a typo I meant he has overpairs and not overs.

              I like the line that langolier suggested, floating and deciding on the turn how to go on. The light raise or X/raise always seems tempting imo since it ends the end right there, but floating makes more sense here.

              And thx at Sam for the cool change of perspective trick, villains dont look like donkeys quite that often if I view the hands that way I suspect :-).


              • #8
                I think from villains view your hand looks alot like a set up until you dont jam the river but from your angle i think when he calls OOP on the flop its likely he has something draw at worse then when he calls the turn he obviously has a strong hand imo on a dry board.

                So if i did actually have a set on this board i would jam the river as i would expect that villain was strong enough to go all i would think he has over pairs pretty much all of the time when he hasnt raised at all maybe he can have TPTK as well, what i cant understand though was he correct on stationing you to the river with QQ on a dry board because there's not many draws you can barrel and i dont know if villain sees you as aggro.

                I would fold my overs and draws on the turn even though the turn and the river dont change anything (correct me if im wrong)

                How would you play a flopped set there? I would raise the flop like you did and then i would be betting bigger on the turn then i would jam the river. Now if i was the preflop raiser and he was calling my bets i wouldn't bet as big because i cant imagine his hand being strong enough to call big bets on that flop and turn but when you raised up the flop that tells me hes strong unless he likes to chase draws.


                • #9
                  yeah, I would have played a flopped set the way that you described, bet turn slightly bigger and shove river, so I should have chosen the same sizing, but all in all floating would be better here if we want to continue on the flop as langolier described.

                  But not much money in trying to get People of overcards anyway, unless there are four cards to a flush or straight or something like that. In this case I dont think calling me down was to bad of him, if the river would have been a heart, he probably should have folded since my semibluffs got there.
                  Last edited by almigthybald; Fri Jul 26, 2013, 07:56 PM.


                  • #10
                    Yeah i don't really like him calling all those bets with QQ because i don't think anyone is going for 3 streets of value after the raise with TPTK so all he beats are draws and JJ i wouldn't mind as much on a wet board but i think with this board we are beat when people bet like you did but at the same time i wouldn't keep firing on that board with air.

                    I don't know if i was villain i would be making a call on how aggro you are and if your capable of bluffing the river.



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