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  • Can't move up

    So I've been trying to beat 5nl for a second month now, but I can't seem to succeed. I tried everything, I gave my hands for a stat sleuth session, watched couple of 5nl videos. And yet I'm 9$ up over 95k hands.
    I'm playing zoom short handed.
    Any suggestions? Any videos that maybe helped you beat 5nl? Any book read?
    thx

  • #2
    I'm in the same spot with 10nl - breakeven.

    Was just thinking to myself this morning though that being breakeven's not such a bad place to be - at least we can stay at the same level and work on getting better, instead of having to move down and rebuild our roll


    I get most of my ideas for what to work on from going to Zoom Live Training classes (and watching the vids of the classes I've missed), reading the advice given in HA, and getting help from the people who have stopped by my Time Vault thread. And then a bit's come from looking over my own hands when doing review. Stuff like that?

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    • #3
      Indeed, as Trusty also mention take some time on you're hud and make use of the filters and see where u can possible adjust. I had a tough time beating 5NL because I had lot's of swings.
      Changed a few things
      - Being more aggro
      - Quit hands with premium holdings facing a lot aggression.
      - Steal way more in LP
      - don't call 3bets often, but either 4bet/fold.
      - label and note villains way more then I did before
      - play 2 tables max (in the start) seems my winrate was way more on 2 tables then (1,3,4) yes indeed also more then 1 tabling. Possible I lack the action on 1 tabling and go play more spectulative hands.

      Watching he tlive zoom trainings and forum is a very great resource to adjust you're game. I just quit 5NL and try to find my way to 10NL. But must admit I had also a few private coachings and those work best.
      Last edited by ferdyr77; Fri Jul 12, 2013, 06:02 PM.
      Bracelet Winner

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      • #4
        At first I started "adjusting" too, I went more agressive, made more resteals, but that did not work for me at all as I was losing big, things got better when I turned back to my 2nl pace, with ~6-8 resteal, and moderate agression.

        I'd get a private coaching too if I had the money

        I started off on 2 tables too, now I'm playing 4 as I was at 2nl, trying to get gold star by this month. Maybe this is a problem too.


        TrustySam
        Being break even is not bad in case this is not your only source of income. Where I live, playing 2nl 34 hours a week made me about an average salary per month, so I made a living out of it. Being break even is kinda sad for me.
        Last edited by Praydk; Fri Jul 12, 2013, 07:22 PM.

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        • #5
          What did the Statistical Sleuth session turn up? Sounds like maybe your stats were in good shape?

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          • #6
            some hand reading issues, and a low resteal pctg

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            • #7
              Well im stuck at 2nl ive done more studying this month but ive done like 10k hands with a load of coolers , i looked through all of my hands and i cant see any major leaks. Ive spewed a coup[le of dollars here and there trying to get bad regs off of tptk but i can live with that.

              What i would like to know though is it even possible for you to be having so many coolers for a month? Im break even but surely to be break even over a month you would think im missing a trick or two, my aces and kings however have made a loss overall thats how bad my all ins have been preflop. All of my winnings have came from non showdown winnings. Ive managed to get the red line going up im just hopinh i can see the green line go up as well soon because i want to get moving up the stakes now.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Praydk View Post
                some hand reading issues
                Just the other day, I was noting that a big part of 5nl seems to be learning to deal with tricky monster versus monster hands - like learning to spot the signs that while both hands are strong, ours might be behind?

                Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                5nl General Description of the Player Pool   • people are tighter, have a fold button   • aggression levels are higher Skills to Have/Learn   • 3betting for value is more common with a wider range of hands than just AA and KK (especially from the blinds)   • blinds stealing is much more prevalent (since people are more capable of folding)
                • c-betting is also more common (since people fold more, and blinds stealers are relying more on position when opening with that wider range)
                      • but it's maybe a lot of 'one and done' type?   • floating/bluffing seems to be more common in response?   • hand reading as well becomes more important, once people start playing that wider range       • but at this point, ranging in terms of holdings like 'straights', 'flushes', still seems to be good enough?   • folding 2nd best hands starts to become more important, since tags are only continuing with strong hands as well
                [/spoiler] Example of a Tricky Monster versus Monster Hand

                Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                An Interesting Ranging Exercise (Or Not? ) Well, so for the past year I've been spending a lot of time studying those 'action flops' - and here's a hand that had about everything in it ... four Broadways, it was paired, there were three to a flush, and four to a straight. Kind of an interesting spot for the KJs, in that they had a boat ... but it was only a middling boat - and the other player was a multi-tabling reg with standard stats. The KJ isn't me by the way LOL ... I don't play deepstacked. But I couldn't help but wonder if was right to call or fold in response to the shove. They were ahead of a flush and a straight (both of which completed on the river), as well as some boats except KQ, AK, AA?

                The villain had Ah Ad [/spoiler] Hope everybody's having fun at the tables
                Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                Update So there were how many possible full houses? 1. AA 2. AK 3. KQ 4. KJ 5. QQ 6. JJ And ... AA,AK,KQ > KJ > QQ,JJ? It kind of seemed like there were a lot of strong signs that the KJ was no good, the way the betting/calling unfolded, with the opponent's profile, and the board being what it is.
                [/spoiler] And then to get practice with that, I'd collect hands from Live Training and Hand Analysis, and make little notes, and keep track of my progress in dealing with similar situations? Example of a Hand I Clipped from Live Training

                Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                Refocusing on Folding - SAMPLE HAND: Using Player Reads to Know When to fold TPTK Hand from Live Training - How to Check if Our Kicker is Good (Typecasting Zoom @23:55) Before my Poker Tracker gave out, I had a chance to do a weekly review to look for 'big picture' leaks, and noticed a lot of spew coming from TP 2nd best kicker. Especially in between the cut-off and blinds, where peoples ranges tend to be so much wider (including my own) So if that's a common leak with people, here's a hand that has gotten me focusing a lot more on kickers at the table, and which made me more aware of the signs that might be there to let us know where our kicker might stand in relation to the villain's: Maybe kickers might not be something we'll need to concern ourselves with all the time, but maybe if there's signs that it might be an issue, it's not something we should forget to factor in? Will see how it goes ... gosh, is the site ever slow today
                Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                Maybe on a Better Day ... I *just* finished posting this sample hand of Andre Coimbra's in another thread, that I thought was really cool (starts @2:13): Then went and did the opposite Sigh ... guess my concentration's not all there today. Maybe next time I guess ... .
                Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                One Leak Fixed - Only About 19,638 Left to Go ...
                Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                Hand from Live Training - How to Check if Our Kicker is Good (Typecasting Zoom @23:55) Before my Poker Tracker gave out, I had a chance to do a weekly review to look for 'big picture' leaks, and noticed a lot of spew coming from TP 2nd best kicker. Especially in between the cut-off and blinds, where peoples ranges tend to be so much wider (including my own) So if that's a common leak with people, here's a hand that has gotten me focusing a lot more on kickers at the table, and which made me more aware of the signs that might be there to let us know where our kicker might stand in relation to the villain's: Maybe kickers might not be something we'll need to concern ourselves with all the time, but maybe if there's signs that it might be an issue, it's not something we should forget to factor in? Will see how it goes ... gosh, is the site ever slow today
                Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                Maybe on a Better Day ... I *just* finished posting this sample hand of Andre Coimbra's in another thread, that I thought was really cool (starts @2:13): Then went and did the opposite Sigh ... guess my concentration's not all there today. Maybe next time I guess ... .
                Hand From Today Villain had TAG stats (small sample size)
                [/spoiler] Example of a Hand I Bookmarked from Hand Analysis

                Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                Thoughts on the Process of Trying to Become Profitable, Improve One's Winrate So, you know I don't think I've ever been a 'natural' at anything in life to be honest. And poker's been no exception, unfortunately I suppose if I'm good at anything it's become learning lol. You know what I mean, like there's something of a process of looking for info that you feel is reliable, that's taught in a way that you find easy to learn, and then there's the process of plodding through all the info and trying to absorb it and apply it, etc. And so, as I mentioned a couple of posts ago, I've been attending Live Training a lot lately. I've been checking out the hands posted in the Hand Analysis section. And I've been taking notes, and keeping a folder of hands with advice of the most common scenarios that we'll tend to encounter at the tables. Here's an example of a hand I bookmarked a while ago from HA: Overpair on a Draw-Heavy Board Hero's hand: Board: Villain in position: makes a huge reraise Advice: Generally, hand values need to rise, the wetter the board. So even if the player's a maniac, is our hand really strong enough to be good enough a decent amount of time (or improved by the river enough times), that you're willing to play for stacks? Because that's where things are headed with the reraise. So with just a pair, and all sorts of straights, sets, and 2 pairs already ahead, maybe it's just better to fold now? And then look what I got today at the table: My hand: Board Villain in position: makes a huge reraise So I folded ... because that's what I read about in HA pretty much I don't know if it would have ever occurred to me to fold an overpair on my own. So, I think it's kind of cool to have HA as a resource. I think getting to hear from players who play better than you get you to see things you might never notice on your own? One more way I guess I'm trying to learn not to be such a station, in addition to using software like Poker Tracker and Leak Busters that I feel is helping a lot ...
                [/spoiler] Like, I spent a lot of time making pretty detailed notes as guides. But I felt like it was time well spent. I think it helped a lot!! umbup:
                Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Jul 12, 2013, 10:01 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mike2198 View Post
                  Well im stuck at 2nl ive done more studying this month but ive done like 10k hands with a load of coolers , i looked through all of my hands and i cant see any major leaks. Ive spewed a coup[le of dollars here and there trying to get bad regs off of tptk but i can live with that. What i would like to know though is it even possible for you to be having so many coolers for a month? Im break even but surely to be break even over a month you would think im missing a trick or two, my aces and kings however have made a loss overall thats how bad my all ins have been preflop. All of my winnings have came from non showdown winnings. Ive managed to get the red line going up im just hopinh i can see the green line go up as well soon because i want to get moving up the stakes now.
                  Hang in there Mike!! GL GL!! umbup:

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Praydk View Post
                    I'm playing zoom short handed.
                    Any suggestions? Any videos that maybe helped you beat 5nl? Any book read?
                    I'd play on regular tables instead of Zoom. Players stack off much lighter on regular tables in my experience, and you can table select so you have nits on your left and loose players on your right, which makes the game much easier.
                    Going to PSO live training sessions is my main advice, but the book I'd most recommend is "Building a Bankroll (Full Ring edition)" by Pawel 'Verneer' Nazarewicz. Just about everything in the book also applies to 6-max, and it's laid out in a very straightforward manner.
                    You probably just need to refresh your fundamental skills, so if you haven't already seen it, take a look at my blog series on how to beat full ring 2NL. (It's just as relevant to 6-max too).
                    Originally posted by mike2198 View Post
                    Well im stuck at 2nl ive done more studying this month but ive done like 10k hands with a load of coolers , i looked through all of my hands and i cant see any major leaks. Ive spewed a coup[le of dollars here and there trying to get bad regs off of tptk but i can live with that.
                    What i would like to know though is it even possible for you to be having so many coolers for a month?
                    Yes. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but I had a 35,000 hand break-even stretch of 2NL, when my long-term winrate was closer to 12bb/100. Coolerville is not a nice place to visit if you're on the wrong side of the tracks, but everyone (except maybe Sandtrap ) makes an unplanned and over-extended stay there at some point. Just grit your teeth and keep grinding, or take a break or learn a different game if the bad run is getting you down.
                    Bracelet Winner

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                    • #11
                      Yeah but surely pros that make a ton of money at poker dont go on downswings of break even for a month? I was looking at that bell curve thing and i dont know if im using it correctly but my sets and straights for last month was in the unlucky end.

                      I then looked for the whole 100k hands and my sets and flushes were in normal and my straights were on the unlucky side, i would show the pic if i didnt lose all my hands.

                      I would expect in live games you could go a downswing for a long time because of not playing as many hands but when your zooming 1000s of hands how can your luck be so bad. You should of seen my graph the red line was making me break even and the green line was going down like my red line used to.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        idk about pros but I just lost 3 stacks over like 3 minutes with premiums in 3bet pots versus small pockets that caught sets.
                        Back to 2nl.. very sad as I expect this to be a vicious circle, 2nl win - try to adapt to 5nl - lose - 2nl..

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well if being more aggressive didn't do the trick, I have the solution...
                          Move to tournaments!
                          You can move up in stakes after a single session.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mike2198 View Post
                            Yeah but surely pros that make a ton of money at poker dont go on downswings of break even for a month?
                            Get Verneer's "Building a Bankroll" book. The first chapter is all about variance. He shows vinivici's insane graph, in which he made $155,000 in 2.5 million hands. The graph looks pretty straight, and when it was first posted on 2+2, the thread title was an ironic "Brag: No variance". But during the course of the 2.5 million hands in which vinivici was crushing 50NL and 100NL, he had a 20 buy-in downswing and a breakeven period of 100,000 hands.
                            Some players go a whole year without making money. One month of bad beats is nothing.
                            Bracelet Winner

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Lol what's the point of being a poker pro if you make no money over a year, waiting couple of years for the variance to even you up? Might as well get a job.

                              At first the name seemed familiar, I read moving through unl by him.

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