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10nl 4b pot

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  • 10nl 4b pot

    Hey guys, Interesting hand came up. Pretty standard raise from the sb. Villain is a decent reg (20/16 3b:8). I think he'll be 3betting a decent amount IP, and i'm not gonna be flatting K9o OOP so I decide to 4b (have blockers etc and I think i'll get a lot of folds). Flop is horrible, but I don't think it'll be hitting his 3b/call range so I cbet. When the turn comes, I think this hits my range a lot harder than him, and with the money invested, if i'm ever gonna double barrel it'll be this card. Yeah. Probably high variance but meh.

  • #2
    Hi birdayy,

    I don't mind a light 4b sometimes in this spot, although your default line should be to fold K9 imo.

    Post flop, before I get into my thoughts about the play, I want to go deeper here:

    but I don't think it'll be hitting his 3b/call range so I cbet
    So I'll ask you to define specifically what his range is here, and then we can evaluate what are "hits" or made hands and what are misses.
    Last edited by TheLangolier; Fri Jun 21, 2013, 05:58 PM.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by TheLangolier View Post
      Hi birdayy,

      I don't mind a light 4b sometimes in this spot, although your default line should be to fold K9 imo.

      Post flop, before I get into my thoughts about the play, I want to go deeper here:

      So I'll ask you to define specifically what his range is here, and then we can evaluate what are "hits" or made hands and what are misses.
      Sure Dave.

      So, when he 3bets IP i think his range will be relatively wide, but will most likely be comprised of high cards and pairs. It is also likely that he will flat suited connectors rather than 3betting them.

      When the low flop comes, I can maintain my range to look made, or flush draws with overs. When he calls, he most probably has a hand like 9s or Ts which want a safe turn card to continue calling. I also expect him to always fold A high (AK, AQ etc) if he doesn't have a flush draw on this flop, making the ace turn shove even better for our perceived range.

      With stacks as they are, the turn hits my range relatively hard. I could be cbetting with an As and since I 4b pre he will give me a lot of credit when I shove the A.

      In a 4b pot, his 9s-Js are looking pretty weak, and given the large sizing I think I can confidently get a fold enough of the time for it to be +EV.

      Like to hear your take on it Dave.
      Last edited by birdayy; Sat Jun 22, 2013, 04:54 PM.

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      • #4
        I think your thinking at a level past 5nl birday, i like the fold pre but your thinking post flop sounds like your well above people at 5nl and i wouldnt expect all of them to fold.

        Ive tryed these lines before and sometimes they work and sometimes they dont even when my read was good and i repped a hand that crushes theres.

        This is one of those spots where when you lose your stack you spend the next 1k hands getting your losses back so i think thoses sort of plays are better at higher stakes?

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        • #5
          bump

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          • #6
            The mistake that you made was 4 betting pre, I would like a flat 3 bet call more. Also the sizing of the 4 bet looked very weird, as played I think you might end up getting called from TT+ on the turn and obviously any ace of clubs so I don't like the shove, if this is one of the ''I mix it up'' plays, I like it, but doing it often will not be profitable, and players who pick up on this will call you down with 4th pair type of hands
            Last edited by GamblingProp; Sun Jun 23, 2013, 06:37 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by birdayy View Post
              Sure Dave.

              So, when he 3bets IP i think his range will be relatively wide, but will most likely be comprised of high cards and pairs. It is also likely that he will flat suited connectors rather than 3betting them.
              Not far enough.

              I agree with this 3b range assessment, but we 4b, so what is his range to flat our 4b? (As opposed to fold or 5b).

              I think this is fairly narrow range from a decent reg with these stats. TT-QQ, AQs, some AK combos, some smaller pair combos.

              So on the flop I think the c-bet sizing is too small. Half the pot makes it look somewhat like a miss with AK just following through, which doesn't put enough pressure on TT/JJ like a larger c-bet of maybe $3 would... it may create some doubt that you really have the AA/KK you're repping. I would call your flop c-bet with JJ and float you with AK as well in this spot personally.

              The turn shove I think does adequately rep AK given the small c-bet sizing, although to a strong player this should look suspicious. If you actually had AK you might check the turn rather than put this kind of pressure on TT/JJ. If you held KK or QQ you would probably check/call to induce further action from these hands. Despite the fact that if I were the villain I would find this very suspicious and would doubt you actually held AK, I would find it very difficult to call off and bluff catch you with TT in this spot.

              I think Mike made a nice point, you're doing some good higher level thinking here but may fall under the FPS category for this level. This villain type does seem like a good target for it though tbh... he will often flat the 4b with TT/JJ, be scared of AK on the turn and not be experienced enough or diligent enough to work through the ranging and find a hero call.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by GamblingProp View Post
                The mistake that you made was 4 betting pre, I would like a flat 3 bet call more.
                I don't think we can profitably flat the 3b OOP with K9o. 4b/fold is probably a more profitable line, but just folding to the 3b should be our default play here imo without adequate game flow history.
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                • #9
                  Thanks Dave. Just got back from holiday so just reading through the posts.

                  I usually size my cbets a little smaller in 3b/4b pots. Keeping sizing consistent should conceal our hand strength if we start to play more and more with regs.

                  I agree with the range of Ts-Qs (though I think we could include 9s). It does look like a narrow range, but given our 4b pre, our range is already narrow, so it's not that hard to rep the ace.

                  I'll try and calm down on the FPS at 10nl.

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