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Folding KK pre-flop?

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  • Folding KK pre-flop?

    I'm still waiting for Tylers class on the occasions he folded KK pre-flop to come around so I want to post this here to see what current thinking is. I'm told often that there is nothing wrong at all with getting KK in pre because people can get carried away with AK/QQ etc. If you are pretty confident though that the person has AA are we not spewing by going with it? To an extent I might as well have 22 as KK. The guy in this hand is a Zoom reg with sensible stats 15/12 over 254 hands. I'm guessing that he does what most good Zoom regs do and calls a 3bet with QQ for a pretty powerful set-mine. So, can I fold? I didnt think he had anything other than AA.
    Last edited by bhoylegend; Mon May 27, 2013, 05:25 PM.

  • #2
    I never fold KK pre at 2NL Zoom. Yeah 4 bets from some players are just as likley to be QQ, AK, JJ as AA. If you know he only 4 bets AA then its probably a fold. I wouldnt have folded to a villain with only 250 hands though.

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    • #3
      250 hands is too small for a decent read, as said above. So let's look at equity versus a few ranges:

      vs AA -- 18% (~5:1)
      vs KK+ -- 22% (~4:1)
      vs QQ+ -- even (1:1)
      vs KK+, AKs -- 32% (2:1)

      You're getting ~3:2 odds, about 40% equity, in return. So the only range you are ahead of is QQ+ or worse. In zoom your can wait for a better situation, imnsho.

      To paraphrase Will Rogers: Good decisions come from experience. Experience comes from bad decisions.

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      • #4
        I'm not folding KK for 100bb here, but then I probably wouldn't have 3-bet in the first place.
        Villain can do this with QQ/AK or worse and you have 57% equity against that range, plus some padding from the dead money. I also disagree with "most good Zoom regs... call a 3bet with QQ for a pretty powerful set-mine".

        Villain does not have the right odds to go set-mining. Calling a 3-bet OOP with QQ is spew. If I was villain and I had QQ, I would look at your stats. Since you're pretty nitty, I'd fold QQ, but I'd 4-bet QQ and AK if you were more aggro. This was explained in my blog the other day.
        If villain is aware of your tendencies (most zoom regs aren't) then he should always have KK+ in this spot, but I wouldn't give him that much credit.

        Against a TAG's UTG open, I'd actually flat with KK to keep his range as wide as possible. I want him to think hands like TT and JJ are good. By 3-betting, you manipulate his range to hands that have you in much worse shape. He'll fold JJ/TT/AQs and sometimes AK too.
        On this particular board, I'd still be going broke if I station it to the river with my overpair, but in the long run, you'd make money when he c-bets AK/QQ and shuts down when you call.
        Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Mon May 27, 2013, 08:38 PM.
        Bracelet Winner

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        • #5
          I would never fold KK preflop, never ever

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          • #6
            his UTG raise of 4bb shows strength but this is just a cooler im my opinion there is no way i can escape here (unless hes a super nit) as he could have so easily had QQ just as easily and possibly AK

            im no expert though but i am talking from my 2NL experience

            dont sweat it as @ other times you will have the AA and the other poor guy/gal happens to have KK

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            • #7
              If they are a weak TAG, a 4-bet is nothing but AA almost every time..

              Is 4x their usual opening bet? If not, a weak player is usually at the top of their range.

              Everything in poker is situation dependent. And some situations, albeit rarely, call for folding KK pre on deep money. The questions is "Is this one of those rare situations?"

              I'll give you the answer: "It depends."

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              • #8
                This is the kind of spot where I fold Kings

                http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...951_EF4555F92D

                Just reeeks of aces.

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                • #9
                  I just checked my stats. I have 89 hands from this year where I got all in with KK preflop. I ran into AA 33 times.

                  In total I won 51% of these 89 hands and am slightly +ev and have won $43. For a comparison, with AA I have gotten all in preflop 93 times. Have won 84% of the hands and have won $991 bucks!

                  On a regular table, I doubt Im ever folding KK.

                  On Zoom, I have never folded KK. However, I have been considering folding if several conditions are in place for example both the villain and myself are very deep stacked AND Im playing at 25NL or higher AND the villain is in EP AND is a good reg.

                  Roland GTX

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
                    I also disagree with "most good Zoom regs... call a 3bet with QQ for a pretty powerful set-mine".
                    I constructed that part of my initial post really badly it seems.

                    While I was posting about the hand I played this morning I wasnt necessarily talking about calling with QQ in this one hand and the way it played out with position etc. I should have taken more care when I was wording the post.

                    I guess I have been on the wrong end of KKvAA battles recently and it just got me to thinking that where I am as close to being certain as I can be that someone has AA can I fold my KK?

                    I probably shouldn't even have included the hand I did as it clouded the issue.

                    If someone is tight and takes the 4bet/5bet shove action and I have KK can I fold? In the last week or two I have got it in with KK pre and the only time I wasnt behind was when I came up against KK and won the freeroll for a flush.

                    I've actually got AA in against much worse hands than KK strangely enough including a memorable hand yesterday where I had a 3way all-in pre against 65s and TT

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                    • #11
                      Having looked at my database I got it in against AA 8 out of 24 times. 7 of those 8 times were against TAG players who raised from early position. Which actually does fit the same description of the hand I posted above.

                      If I am not supposed to re-raise against raises from EP TAG's then do I call flop, fold turn to continued aggression? (I know it can depend on exact circumstances sometimes). If someone squeezes behind, and the original raiser (Who in these cases I suspect has AA) moves all-in, can I fold then?

                      I'm just trying to cut out large lsong pots like this from my game where possible as I am in profit, but know I am making mistakes, and I could be further in profit if I can plug these leaks.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bhoylegend View Post
                        If I am not supposed to re-raise against raises from EP TAG's then do I call flop, fold turn to continued aggression? (I know it can depend on exact circumstances sometimes). If someone squeezes behind, and the original raiser (Who in these cases I suspect has AA) moves all-in, can I fold then?
                        If you call and it's heads up, then it depends on board texture. On this particular board, if villain bets flop and turn, you might be able to lay it down, because the only hand you beat is QQ (JJ and TT got there), but if the board is all low cards, you can station it to the river, as QQ-TT will usually keep betting, and they won't know what the hell hit them when you show up with KK at showdown.

                        If there's a squeeze, and UTG shoves, he pretty much has to have aces unless he's crazy, so you can get out of the way and only paid 3 or 4bb to find out you were behind.

                        This is how you win the Cooler battle. When you have AA UTG, villains will always stack off KK, but when you have KK and villain has AA, you won't always lose your stack.
                        Bracelet Winner

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                        • #13
                          I'm not folding KK for 100bb here, but then I probably wouldn't have 3-bet in the first place.

                          If you dont 3bet your KK there Arty what do you do when UTG has opened TT and hits his set?

                          I 3bet my KK all the time and i win most of the time the trouble is i never get them all in pre to often i guess i could try that line but then you could be losing to a set.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mike2198 View Post
                            If you dont 3bet your KK there Arty what do you do when UTG has opened TT and hits his set?
                            I usually lose most of my stack (depending on stack depth to start the hand). He'll only flop a set about 12% of the time, though, and sometimes I'll also have a set.
                            I just look at this way: If villain has TT and I have KK, I will win the hand more than 80% of the time. I'd rather win a big pot 80% of the time, than win the 4bb pot pre-flop 96% of the time.
                            Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Tue May 28, 2013, 07:50 PM.
                            Bracelet Winner

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                            • #15
                              Yeah thats a good answer il have to try this line out, so if you had no reads on villain when do you decide its a good time to 3bet and if you opened UTG and the cutoff 3betted would you 4bet all in?

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