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5NL - KK on A high flop - Zoom.

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  • 5NL - KK on A high flop - Zoom.

    Only have a few hands on villian. Nothing of note. This was the first hand we were involved in together and the first hand he was involved in while at one of my tables. Pre-flop and flop pretty much play themselves. I raise and cbet and get calls both times. I bet again on the turn, in hindsight I think again that I should probably be betting more than I did, but regardless I am min re-raised, and here I elect to call. Should I have shipped the chips at this point given that he is a relative short stack and accept that he might have Arag? On the river he leads out. I again elect to call with the thought that if I re-raise that I should only get called by better. I took a very passive line on this one and while I was scared a little of the ace given that he re-raised turn and bet river I kind of feel that I lost value after the hand was over.

  • #2
    Without reads i'd just fold to the turn raise, as he's usually gonna ship the river, and we can't really call with just Ks.

    Although you were right this time, I doubt (even against fish) we should be calling this thin.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by birdayy View Post
      Without reads i'd just fold to the turn raise, as he's usually gonna ship the river, and we can't really call with just Ks.

      Although you were right this time, I doubt (even against fish) we should be calling this thin.
      I think against a proper re-raise or a sizeable river bet I could have folded fairly easily - and I have done in the past.

      I find it hard to fold to either of the bits of action on the turn or river.

      If I fold to every flop/turn with an ace on it when I hold QQ/KK I will be losing money over the long-haul I am sure.

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      • #4
        Question is: What do we achieve by betting flop?
        Clearly we will get called by Ax and fold out worse. Maybe we get peeled by a Jx.
        I think with position we can check back flop, and call a turn bet/re-asses river to induce a bluff or a thin value bet from Jx or PP.

        He's less likely to have KQ/KT since we hold two Kings and we don't need to worry about a QT since its less likely for a K to come on the turn also so there is little chance for our opponent to improve.

        As played, I'm folding turn; we already bet flop and turn and now we are getting raised

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        • #5
          Check the flop, check the flop, and don't forget to check the flop!

          You're in position here. Unless villain was a known super-station that would always call with worse than 2nd pair (so you'd value-bet Jx for 3 sts on this board), you're basically setting fire to your kings by betting the flop.
          When you c-bet here, very few worse hands are calling, and absolutely no better hands are ever folding. So it's a bad value-bet and a bad bluff.
          Your hand is often ahead and it has showdown value. Try and get it to showdown cheaply, but checking flop and betting (or calling) turn and river. After checking the flop, villain will think hands like Jx are good, so he will pay you off. He won't pay you off if you've repped the ace by betting the flop.

          As played, after betting the flop, you definitely have to check behind on the turn. What are you beating, apart from flush draws and villain's actual hand? When he check-raises, this is an instafold.

          Recall the two main reasons to make a bet:
          1. To get value when you're called by worse (a value bet).
          2. To fold out better hands (a bluff).

          If nothing worse is calling, and nothing better is folding, don't make the bet!
          Bracelet Winner

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          • #6
            Ok guys, consider your advice taken, I wouldnt have thought this was too much of a leak in my game to be honest so it is good to know that it is.

            After reading the analysis I looked through my database to see how many times I cam up agains an A high flop with both KK/QQ. Turns out the two hands I posted today that fit that scenario were the only time that I have been faced with that particular challenge. So, its not totally a shock that I made a less than optimal move, and good to know to correct it before it causes damage.

            Thanks.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by bhoylegend View Post
              After reading the analysis I looked through my database to see how many times I cam up agains an A high flop with both KK/QQ. Turns out the two hands I posted today that fit that scenario were the only time that I have been faced with that particular challenge. So, its not totally a shock that I made a less than optimal move, and good to know to correct it before it causes damage.
              I wish I ran that good! Feels like I face it more than twice an hour when I'm playing. lol I agree on checking back the flop btw, good analysis. umbup:
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              • #8
                Originally posted by TheLangolier View Post
                I wish I ran that good! Feels like I face it more than twice an hour when I'm playing. lol I agree on checking back the flop btw, good analysis. umbup:
                I'm pretty sure that HEM is playing games with me. Depends on how I filter for it. Its actually a considerable amount more - more in line with what would be expected.
                Last edited by bhoylegend; Tue Apr 30, 2013, 10:41 PM.

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                • #9
                  Yeah, I figured maybe your date filter was set to "today" and not pulling your whole database.
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                  • #10
                    I had the date range for the whole month - it still only showed yesterday though.

                    When I removed the filter for A high flop it showed all my KK/QQ hands and I manually looked through to see what the flops were and there were lots more A high flops than the filter showed.

                    I guess it is a bug or something.

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