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What's the right answer

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  • What's the right answer

    Previous hand, my set got beat by another set on the river The info I have on Villain6 is that he's playing 4 tables and he's very loose We often talk about betting for value and we also talk about pot control and we also talk about shoving when we are short stack, so what's the right answer here? My last bet of $13.50 was just to get him to put me all in I just want to know if I played my hand OK I wanted to get value Could I have gotten him to fold? Thank you

  • #2
    Hey Sandtrap,

    I suppose I will be the first to attempt to answer this although I am not sure if there is one right answer. The challenge of poker is that you can play a hand optimally and still lose and you can play it awful and still win. That is part of the attraction for many.

    The first thing to be mentioned is starting this hand short stacked: I know a lot of people who advocate having 100BB and automatically topping up and those who will try and rebuild their stack without topping up. If you are at 100BB you stand to win or lose a 100bb and at 50bb you stand only to lose or win 50BB.I do not really know which approach is more advantageous.

    I think the raise is good in the BB; others my not agree after an MP raise and a call but I prefer aggression even out of position. One folder, one caller.

    Top two pair on the flop, but it is one of those yuck boards that leave even top two vulnerable. I like the bet on the flop, I have no idea what size it should be to protect against the flush draw, but the call by the villain seems passive. You mentioned he was loose but was that just calling with a wide range or did he have a wide range and bet aggressively?

    The turn is another yuck card but this time you bet quite large. What I do know is that the opponent has 20% equity to make a flush but two of those cards are an Ace and a King that would crush his flush so it is even lower. The pot odds are 30%: he has to call $13.50 into a pot of $31.00 which is 2.29 to 1. With his equity being less than the pot odds this would be a losing call in the long term and you do not have the dollars behind to give him the implied odds to make it any sense to put you all in.

    So if he was thinking from a math perspective he should just fold here. If he called perhaps his thinking was that you had such a short stack that he would put you all in anyway.

    It would be good to hear some other thoughts on the hand and to see how it turned out.




    • #3
      Hi Sand

      I'll put my thoughts in too - but be aware this is above my usual games and I am certainly no expert even when I try out on the 25NL 6-max

      I really like the preflop raise - I would rather put a strong raise in here, up to $5 probably as the max, even with our shorter stack - and either get away if we totally miss or continue strongly if we flop big.

      I wouldn't be worried about sets or flush draws on the flop and I would bet stronger at this point. Probably start about $7 and I'd be happy to get it all in on this flop - blockers to AA/KK (though sometimes - too often in my experience they do have it) and very unlikely they have a set - so make the flush draws pay imo.

      The turn is a blank for me - with the two high cards and two hearts I don't expect players at this level are chasing two clubs or low straights on this flop unless they have AK clubs or one/other.

      If I wasn't already all-in on the flop, I'd be all in on the turn.

      Interested to see what the serious hand-analysers, especially the 6-max cash specialists make of this.

      Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Sun Nov 18, 2012, 01:18 AM.
      4 Time Bracelet Winner


      • #4

        Just realized I posted this in the wrong section
        Needs to be moved to:


        • #5
          **moved to more appropriate forum JWK24**

          6 Time Bracelet Winner


          • #6
            The only hands that are beating you here are AA and KK, and you have blockers to both. I can't see a fold here if he called your 13.50 bet, the rest of your stack isn't going to make him fold.

            Of course this is way over my usual level, so I'm certainly no expert, but I would be happy to get all the chips in here.

            Bracelet Winner


            • #7
              The more I look at it the more I intend to agree with Ed that shoving the flop is best. We have a shallow stack and are well ahead of everything only sets. On the turn only AK clubs as well as the aforementioned sets are ahead of us unless he has 34.

              He will never fold the hands above but he could and should fold flush draws with the bet made or an all in on the turn.

              I think how this hand is played is dictated by our stack size and if we had the same number of BBs as our opponent it would be played very different.




              • #8
                Your line is absolutely fine, I also like the small inducing betsize OTF.

                You could check the turn and let him either take a stab at the pot himself since he is so loose, or make it look like you could have a bluff yourself on the river and make him call his Kx hands which he might sometimes fold to a turnshove.

                Giving out a freecard in this spot should not hurt our hand too much here.
                Live Trainer


                • #9
                  Shoving the flop was not my intention, but my initial thought was to go all in, what ever the cards. I wanted him to pay, you know, betting for value. If I go all in, he might fold and I didn't want that.

                  That's why I agree with Felix and have to disagree with you Top and Ed.....LOL

                  But in reality, I should of folded pre flop...........just kidding

                  He had 45 of hearts and caught his heart on the river for a flush


                  • #10
                    Nice hand. Nice line.

                    Seems to me the depth of $ was such that ANY C bet by your tight self oop on an A board with 2 broadways and some draws was going to have this opp pretty much playing for your stack after the turn; either that or spewing money to you on loose calls. Because of this, I tend to agree with Flixx that giving a cheap turn is not going to hurt you all that often here.

                    Trap, my "preferred" bet size would have been around $5 or $6 OTF, since that fits better with my particular betting patterns and better maintains deception for me. That amount also builds the pot a bit more going to the turn, thus making it harder for a loose opp to give up a draw and possibly sweetening the pot to the point he MIGHT try a turn bluff.

                    Of course my bet size probably loses calls from Kx's and gut shots that your's might get from a very loose and unaware player, so it is kind of 6 of 1/ half a dozen of the other unless we get down to eV calcs based on reads of how often, and what size, bets this loose opp might call. This could be a fun exercise, but suffice it to say that seeing as you denied odds to a flush draw hitting the turn (you laid 4 to 1 when he needed about 4.1 to 1), I would have no problem whatsoever with your chosen bet.

                    I think you played the hand fine.
                    Double Bracelet Winner


                    • #11
                      i think its fine

                      firstly i see you mention the previous hand set over set( i prefer not to think about previous hands if i lost but played them correctly as this will have a negative effect on confidence)
                      but yes i think you played it fine...i think the flop bet does price in a few draws but also sets up the turn for nice shove..

                      he does have a large stack so i am presuming he will call any bet...i cannot see the end of the hand.....but if he had 55 then i d say 'nh' and mark it down as a cooler...

                      gl.. toby

                      have just read your explaination of finish..... i think you played the hand fine and there was no other possible outcome after the flop.. as you did not have enough cash to fold him out.. V UL.. tho...
                      Last edited by DjBlackeye; Fri Nov 30, 2012, 02:30 AM.


                      • #12
                        hmmm i'm not a fan of betting so small versus a player where our only read is loose on a flop texture like this [in a 3bet pot]

                        loose players generally make there biggest mistakes pre and on the flop by calling to much, no matter what the bet size..

                        there is a chapter in Bobbo's bible of poker where he explains his strategy of picking a bet size based on various flop textures according to the possible max outs the opponent has of out drawing you [and puts in some handy math examples as well]

                        i think its something you could check out or re-read if you already have the ebook, it might give you a few ideas to incorporate into your game style Sandtrap...

                        if you want a link to the book just PM me sir...



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