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25NL 6max zoom, JJ in SB

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  • 25NL 6max zoom, JJ in SB

    Hey guys, Heres the hand, I'm not sure which link to use so here is both. I was having a dabble in the 25NL zoom as I have played a decent amount of 10NL zoom lately and getting comfortable with it, and I have the BR to move up I had no reads on any of the opponents in this zoom game, but HUD stats(stats in VPIP/PFR/3bet): Villian_6 was 100/67/0 from 3 hands, villian_1 was 53/53/25 from 18 hands (that was from after this hand, it was villian_1's 1st 3bet), the stats dont really mean anything, but I would lean towards them being weak players rather than strong players. Villian_3 was GarethC23. Uh Oh. I had 61 hands on Gareth at the end of the session (which was not soon after this hand as I had already checked the sit out next BB button prior to this hand) so I assume he had about 60 on me, I don't know what stats I had but it would have indicated tag or tight-passive.. My 1st mistake was even looking at my cards whilst Gareth still had cards, I would obviously rather not play a hand with him When I looked down at JJ in SB and facing the min raise and 3bet, I thought it would be a good spot to just flat call because if I hit my hand one of them could likely pay me off. After thinking about it more, I don't really like the flat call, raising there probably would have been a better option (planning to fold to 5bet shove), but the thing about that is it sort of turns JJ into a bluff if I am planning on folding to 5bet.. How about a fold? JJ is usually too strong to fold here I think (would consider it vs nits). Anyway I flat call and Gareth decides to 4bet and the other villians fold.. Calling is not an option now because I would be OOP and in a gross spot on any spot without a J. I am not really sure what is in Gareth's range, definately KK+, not sure about QQ but TT and below he would flat call. And I am not sure what he would do with AK/AQ as I havent seen him play (I can't wait until his live training videos go up in the archive, and I usally cant make it to the sessions live ) but they (probably?) make up a little bit of his range. Something else that came to mind during this hand was that I kind of under rep my hand, and if I shove he would have to call with AK (which I am 54/46 I think). I think a fold is best here, but also my first action was a close spot. Any comments are appreciated Thanks, Chris

  • #2
    Hi there,

    I've never played as 25NL so may not be great advice but just my thoughts. I would have played this hand differently, for the one reason that I know Gareth, I know he's a reg and a great thinking player.

    Villain 6 seems to be extremely loose and min bets (not a great sample size, but hes going to have to have a strong hand to continue in a raised pot OOP). Villain 1 3bets in position against a loose player to isolate (assuming he also has a HUD running), and also he's likely far ahead of his range.

    You flat call, and Gareth in the big blind seeing a weak player that hes likely ahead of, and a player trying to isolate a weak player (possibly doing this light). And then you flat calling. Its a perfect squeeze spot for him. Villain 6 is likely to fold, as is Villain 1 in my opinion. You may call, but even if you do, he has position on you in this hand.

    Taking all this into consideration, I would elect to 4bet myself, to about the amount Gareth did, because your out of position. Gareth is more likely to fold, because if he doesn't have a big hand there is a lot of money to put in and a huge amount in the pot on the flop, if he misses the flop it's going to be hard to play his hand. If Villain 6 calls, well he seems weak and you could be ahead. And Villain 1 the same applies, although he is probably slightly stronger than villain 6, reevaluate on the flop, a c-bet could take it down, or you could flop a monster even if it doesn't.
    Last edited by craig121212; Thu Sep 06, 2012, 04:24 PM.


    • #3
      Hi Barbzz,

      Interesting spot Villain_3 has the the same decision making process as you.

      I have attended some of Gareth's live training sessions and he normally goes along these lines.

      1) Hand is too good to fold.
      2) Calling oop is going to be difficult to play post flop
      3) Raise and hopefully take down the pot now.

      Also worth considering at these stakes a wider 4-bet bluff range.

      Sorry Gareth if I misquoted you. Barbzz on the plus side I think he may have had you beat.


      • #4

        I think you guys are leveling yourselves a bit talking about squeezing and light 4-betting. Although we don't have any real reads on the first 2 villains (sample size of 3 hands means nothing even if the guy played all 3), and we don't know what stats Gareth has on them, at least we all can see they are not playing full stacks so therefore are more likely to be fish from that fact alone. Also may want to check the lobby and see how many tables they're playing. I don't mind the flat call pre but would generally 4-bet/get it in vs. the 2 probable fish as I expect them to do this with many worse hands.

        As played, although it may sound nitty, I would fold here. I don't expect a solid winning player to ever be cold 4-betting light with 2 probable fish in the pot, nor do I expect him to be turning worse pairs TT- into a bluff with this action sequence either. I expect this to be value with a very strong hand, and vs. a range of QQ+ and AK (all of which he's getting in at this point if we 5b) we only have 36% equity.

        I'll ask Gareth to sound in and see how far off I am when he tells us he had 97s.

        Head Live Trainer
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        4 Time Bracelet Winner


        • #5
          Thanks Craig and Forrest, yes I tend to agree with both of you that it probably should be a 4bet Craig - you have deconstructed the hand pretty damn well, of course your advice/thoughts is welcome and appreciated Forrest - yes I saw that process of his when he was doing a hand analysis in the forums, it's really good the way he sets it out; and that is dead right about this hand. And by the wider 4bet bluff range do you mean from my spot or from Gareth's spot? I think playing solid against the weaker players gives enough edge, I would only consider a 4bet bluff vs regs that I have sick reads on (and I rarely pull the trigger) Also something that I thought of just then, I dont know if it affected me (maybe sub consciously) but playing the higher stakes than usual may have come into just cold calling rather than 4betting; I looked at my stats from the session and I was a little bit nittier than normal in general, although it wasnt much of a sample size to make too many assumptions with. Thanks for the responses guys!! umbup:


          • #6
            I remember this spot quite clearly. Maybe because it only happened a few hours ago during my late night snack session at 3am .

            I will go into my thought process and reads in a bit of depth. Then maybe draw a conclusion as to OP's hand from there.

            I also had villain 6 playing very loose stats. Upon inspection he was playing only 1 table. I had the player behind him playing well, a regular type, and I did have OP playing tighter, but by no means nitty. I don't recall all of their stats like 3b%, fold to 3b% and so on, but those are my basic reads.

            In this situation I do actually have a light 4b range, but I would say my 4b range is still by and large quite strong.

            1. 4-betting squeezes out the fish/initial raiser. I think flat calling the 3bet with strong hands basically guarantees the fish also comes along. My position isn't great in this case, but it is manageable. Therefore with all my hands that want to see a flop, I am calling. That means 22-QQ and suited broadways especially, (JTs-ATs).

            2. The ranges involved seem quite weak. The 3-better has probably a wide range to isolate someone he sees as a weak player. The player with the strongest range is OP since we see he is calling (stronger than raising sometimes, as it is here) and is doing so out of position. So if I were to have a weaker high card hand, like KJo, KQo, or ATo, AJo... these hands that don't flop that well compared to their suited cousins, I might be inclined to 4bet light. I imagine I can get the two players with weak ranges to fold often, but I also put tremendous pressure on OP's hand, and in order to continue he has to be reasonably strong.

            3. Just because 4betting light is a possibility, does not mean it is probable. In reality I am flat calling hands as strong as QQ and AKs here, in order to see the flop with the target player. When I have a very premium hand like KK or AA I am also going to 4b here because the value of getting all-in preflop begins to trump the value of seeing a multiway flop out of position, even with a weak player.

            So this is a long way of saying my range to 4b here is probably, in all reality, KK, AA, with some AJo, KJo type bluffs thrown in on occasion. I am going to fold those occasional bluffs out if our Hero decides to move all-in, but I am going to call with my KK, AA.

            From his perspective though, he has no idea what my exact range is. But I think it is reasonable to expect it to be fairly weighted towards QQ+ AK in this spot as a default. In that case JJ is going to be a grudging fold as well.

            I did have the KK fwiw. So I am quite biased in my analysis


            • #7
              By the way everyone, I shoved here, I had the bet amount on all in and the mouse hovering over fold, but also wanting to see Gareths hand got the better of me I think. I think if I 4bet I would have gotten away from the hand cheaper when Gareth came over the top (assuming that you would) it would have been an easier fold.

              Thanks for the post Dave, you must have posted yours while I was typing. I saw your post and was about to get back to you that unfortunately I did find out Gareth's hand, KK, lol. Everything you say there makes sense, and regarding the stack amounts meaning fish is something that I for some reason didnt look at in this hand, I think I was too busy staring at Gareth's avatar.

              And Gareth, A nice 3am gift for you then Gareth I thought you would remember it, making money isnt usually that easy . Take it as donation for being a coach, the amount of extra money I shall make from your lessons will be far greater than 1 stack that I lost to you

              I thought you might have a bluff range with decent hands that you dont want to play 4 way, for example AJo like you said, but yes of course the premiums as well just annihilate which is most of the time; also there would be no real need for you to have a 'balanced' range here as I am by no means a reg. Something else I didnt consider was that you would have seen a min raise and 3bet, you would have had time to fast fold from the BB while I was taking my turn, but you were still there when it was your turn to act so there was probably a reason. I dont really think that your post it biased, as you said you do have the value range most of the time when you 4bet here.
              Thanks a lot for the analysis and thought process, some great stuff to think about.

              I'll be at your session later on And I still ended +$ for that session despite this, winning flips is always nice Maybe next time I will just open fold the JJ, I found out here why it is usually the hardest hand to play

              Thanks a lot everyone



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