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5 NL 6 Max donk shove by unknown

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  • 5 NL 6 Max donk shove by unknown

    Hi guys, thought I might post something that seems rather familiar to everyone. I was on my third hand on this table. Previous 2 hands the villain Rolmar folded, so it's the first hand he's playing. I have 0 info or history on him. He opens with 5xbb which was consistent later on. I 3bet him for value. Flop comes I got an overpair but he donk shoves. I decided to fold begrudgingly since he might have hit a set. Assuming his 3bet calling range is TT+, TT and JJ would have given him a set, AA and KK would have beaten me. Only thing I was beating was AQ, AK, or pure bluff. After winning this, he sits out for a few hands. He continues playing and left after 8 hands when his stats was 38/13 but it's too small a sample size to deduce anything. Was this a good fold - live to fight after I got more info on him?

  • #2
    Hi ANW, When you 3-bet pre and he called you set up a SPR of under 3, this low SPR is beneficial to your overpair and therefore warrants getting it in. Also I'm not sure AA and KK are a big part of his range, if he is going to smooth call a 3b OOP with AA/KK then why lead out so big on a flop such as this. Why doesn't he continue slowplaying, donkeys do make some strange plays sometimes so you never know he might take this line with AA/KK. I think he probably does take this line with hands that beat you such as sets. But he could also be bluffing with his misses and perhaps draws. Even if we assign him a fairly tight range of TT+ and AK suited and off, then we have 40% equity and we need 42% to call. Even with this slight equity deficit I think it is still a call (or ship it for your last 16c) as of the low SPR. Also I do not think his range is this tight I wouldn't be surprised if he did this with KQs a missed AQs and perhaps even a funky spazzing out AJs. Against this looser range we have nearly 45% equity and therefore we should probably get it in as we are getting decent odds.. Not a nice spot to be in without any info, but with the SPR you set up with your preflop 3-bet I get it in and hope i'm best against and unknown. Not sure about my ranging on this one so I'll be interested to see what others say. Good luck. Croyd umbup:
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    • #3

      I think the fold is fine actually. Given the low SPR and the uncertainty here calling is fine as well, but an spr of 3 does not mean we have to just stick it in... it means we should be able to profitably commit much of the time. If we knew we were beat though we obviously would fold. The thing is I really don't know here. This looks like a value line or semi-bluff to me, and value hands should all be beating us but are they? Would this guy think AJ is the nuts? Who knows. Without reads we really can't know.

      If I give him a range of all sets and overpairs, KQ, AKs, AQs, and AJs, we're a 64-36 dog. Why would a villain bomb a set into us though? It makes no sense, yet the action itself makes no sense. If I take all the sets out of that range we're 42.7%. Add in 1 bluff like 99 and we're 50/50.

      IDK, you stumped me. When a line makes no sense and the spr is low, I lean towards committing and getting it in with a strong 1 pair hand. But I don't fault the fold either.

      Nice hand, wish we had reads.

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      • #4
        I sent a message to Flix asking him to have a look at this one too, curious his thoughts on this spot as well.

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        • #5
          Hey all,

          actually my very first instinct when I saw the hand was to...

          Since there are no real infos/reads/stats on villain I would fear to be making a much bigger mistake by laying down too much equity than paying off his top range. That being said I don't think that most villains will even play their top range like that shoving into the PFR and potentially killing all their action this way. In my experience this line is rarely being taken with a real hand, since even weaker players will tend to slowplay sets or at least check to the preflop aggressor.

          Also, since he flatcalled pre I would definitely discount most KK/AA combos.

          Judging by my first impressions of this villain, his sizings and his line I wouldn't even rule out a lot broadway hands like AJ/KJ/QJ/AT or even stuff like 98s that he might get fancy with.
          Live Trainer


          • #6
            Hi Awesome...

            It is unanimous...

            Without reads, your low SPR is often reason enough to get it in with a low SPR and an over pair.

            As Flixx said, there is a hierarchy of "mistakes" in poker, and often it is a BIGGER mistake to "give up" than to call and lose.

            As Dave Said, IF you had reads, and those reads lead you to believe you are beat with 1 pair (reads such as, "this guy is playing an uber tight range, he has been seen to CALL rather than raise most often, has never gotten all in, and suddenly he shoves over my bet"), then even a low SPR is a spot you can fold out of if you can reasonably assume you have just 2 live outs. But you state you LACK those reads...

            And as Croyd states, even if he is tighter than normal to shove, you probably still have reasonable equity to go ahead and call because of the low SPR and your hand's strength. What you want to do is avoid only seeing "monsters under the bed", because if that is how you view your opp's, it is YOU who will become the easily beaten "nit"!

            I agree 100% with all this views!

            In this spot, with your 3bet setting up an SPR that is low enough to (usually) profitably commit on an over pair hand, I probably call more often than not in a CASH GAME. I think your decision is probably the "right move" (or at least righter) for an MTT, but in a cash game lacking info here, I think I am more on the call than fold side.

            Hope it helps.

            Last edited by JDean; Wed Jul 04, 2012, 05:34 PM.
            Double Bracelet Winner


            • #7
              Haha! I like the graphic. Thanks guys. umbup:
              Head Live Trainer
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              4 Time Bracelet Winner


              • #8
                Heys everyone, very interesting discussion going on. Thanks for all your input. I agree that AA and KK wouldn't have flat me preflop. If villain had a set, he also wouldn't have taken this line.

                The part about "hierarchy of "mistakes" in poker, and often it is a BIGGER mistake to "give up" than to call and lose" is something new to me which sounds very logical.

                Since the villain's line didn't make sense and it's cash game, calling here would have been profitable. Time to be more adventurous and out of my nitty image!

                Learnt a lot from everyone's perspective and that's what I love about PSO



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