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10nl Cash Game...

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  • 10nl Cash Game...

    How would you play this? Missed some value? I do not have reads on both players but I was waiting for the river to bet the pot but when the 4th spade comes and I have the 3rd nut how many times will I find someone with a higher spade sicne I am against 2 other people here. I took a safe way of action though in these cases since there is an A on board will guys give me action enough if I bet? Or only people who beat me will do? Thanks in advance Etienne

  • #2
    Hi Etipac.

    The very first comment I'd like to make is regarding why you would really want to open limp T8s in EP (UTG +1) when you lack info on opponents?

    Do not get me wrong, I can see reasons to do this at some tables:

    - You know the table will play passively and allow you to draw with a decent price on this depth of money.
    - Your Table is extremely loose pre flop, but rather tight post flop, therefore you can out play opponents post flop even oop.
    - You are seeking to "balance" your open range in EP to diguise later hands you might want to limp in EP (like small/middle pp).

    But any of these reasons tend to require that you have info on opponents, either about their play, or about their ability to see and note what you are doing. Absent specific reasons for getitng involved with T8s here, you probably put yourself into a spot where you were relying on luck, you know Etipac?

    But anyway...

    You limp T8s UTG +1 and get 3 callers. The BB checks his option, and that sets up a SPR of around 7.8 versus the $3.91 effective stack.
    This is actually pretty good for your T8s hand, as it is a medium SPR which can allow you some room to play your weaker draws; although you have to be careful not to rely on EXTREMELY weak draws that you may flop.

    You actually flop pretty well, hitting a flush draw, plus a gut shot straight draw.
    Neither of your draws are to the nuts, but that is fine as long as the moeny is not extremely deep.
    This is a pretty good flop.

    When the SB caller leads this flop, you cannot really raise him on your draws with 2 palyers behind you.
    Getting pretty much what you'd WANT from the flop means you really should not fold to this 44% pot bet either.
    So I think your flat is best here.

    You are calling 22c to possibly win 72c, and if all 12 of your outs are good (not counting over card outs), the 3.27 to 1 you are getting is plenty enough reason to take a 25.8% shot at spiking the turn.

    You get 1 caller behind, so your odds for hitting are even better.

    When you spike, this is where playing a drawing type hand oop and without opponent info really tends to cost you...

    When SB leads pretty strong (67% pot), it is really hard for you to raise with a T high flush really:

    - If you are best, raising is certain to price out the guy behind you who may call this bet on an Ace hit in this pot.
    - If the SB has a better flush, you are drawing dead.

    I'm definately not sweating the better flush often though, or else I negate my reasons for drawing past the flop in the first place, but the guy BEHIND me is my real worry.
    If he will call with an Ace and a single better spade than a T, I certainly want to raise now, as I would if he would call here with just an Ace.
    If he is the sort to call somewhat weak flop bets with just overs though, but "give up" on threatening board textures like this with top pairs/weak kickers, I would want to flat to give him max chance to add value for me.

    The problem we face though Etienne, is we simply do not KNOW enough to really see our way clear to our best value line. That is the whole problem with playing drawing type hands oop, especially when lacking info.

    In my opinion though, I think I lean towards the immediate raise.

    1) The SB has shown interest in this pot by escalating his bet sizing on this turn. He may well be reluctant to "give up" on any ace hit now, so I should charge him now. A 4th spade could "kill" my action on the river, not only by waking an A up to the fact it is beat, but also in making me (possibly) reluctant to bet a T high flush on a 4 spade board.

    2) The LP player may easily have a better spade, and if so, the LAST thing I want to see is another Spade coming to cost me the pot.

    So I think here I make it around $2.25, to an all in for the SB, to go.

    Instead, you flat, and the guy behind flats too. That is great for you really, if you know some things about his calling range, but some rivers are going to make it really hard for you to get anything more.

    The river Ks is pretty bad for you, as it puts a 4 flush on the board.
    It could be worse of course, it could have bene the 3s, leaving you with 4th nut flush, as well as putting a possible straight card on the board, but without info on what the LP guy might be hanging around with, this Ks is still plenty bad.

    SB checks to you, and I think about your only option here is to check along.

    You COULD contemplate a bet to put the SB all in or nearly so ($2.91 or there abouts), but with no surety that this will get called by less (you have no info on opps), AND with a bigger stack than your's to act behind you, the depth of money could easily result in you being bluffed off this pot by an aware player. I think I much prefer your line of checking, with the intent of calling around $3.00 maximum, depnding on what I see behind me.


    In my opinion Etienne after electing to play a drawing type hand oop without good info, about the only place you can really do anything differently than you did was on turn turn. I think I'd have chosen to "give up" some possible value from a call by the LP player by raising then, rather than trying to "disguise" my hand strength to massage maximum value. To get that maximum value really requires a lot more info than you had here, or requires better position.

    Hope it helps.

    Double Bracelet Winner


    • #3

      nh, I mean, I wish I could say nice hand. Why are you limping Ts8s in early position without reads AND calling that flop bet if not to raise on that beautiful As turn? It's the perfect card for you to raise on. You are losing alot of value here and this is why:

      The way this hand has played out your opponent's hand looks just like what it is, a weak ace. In this case, a weak ace that's hit for two pair. These are just the sort of hands you want to extract maximum value from with your flush. Because your opponent will often find it hard to fold his two pair here to one raise, and you need to protect against his drawing out to a boat, or to a better flush---the unhappy situation you were scared of on the river.

      Also, sometimes your opponent will reshove on you, charging himself the maximum to drawout on your strong made hand.

      When you are wrong, sure, you might feel dumb but that's the chance you've taken limping a hand like Ts8s from early position without reads at a 10nl9max table.

      On this As turn that has given you your flush, you need to raise now, for both value and to protect against being drawn out on. The reason is that fairly often this As will have helped your opponent somehow. But you will still have the best hand here most of the time. Raise now, someone has to make a pot big between the two of you first, and it may as well be you, especially seeing as you have made your flush.
      Last edited by rule110; Tue Feb 14, 2012, 11:50 AM.



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