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10NL A,Ko facing 3Bet & a flat call pre-flop

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  • 10NL A,Ko facing 3Bet & a flat call pre-flop

    Hi! Guys,
    Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner
    The limper had been playing loose so he could have any two cards. The opp flatting our raise had been playing TAG. No reads on the opp who 3 bets. What would be the right play in this spot? Cheers.

  • #2
    Hi DedEyez!

    This is actually a pretty tricky spot given the sort of reads you supply. I'd really like to know a bit more on the "loose" opp who flats our raise in position...does he flat 3 and 4bets loosely too, or does he "give up" if the action gets really strong?

    You see DE, in my opinion, flatting AK oop is a "deep money" option, but versus the 2 opp's that are short here, I think I'd prefer to get the $4.75 stack all in pre flop (yes, even though he is TAG), and ensure that I get to see all 5 cards. But doing that is only feasible if we can isolate ourselves on those short stacks quite often...

    If the loose villain WILL fold to extreme action, then I'd prefer to immediately raise, making it around $4.75 to $5.00 more, and race the shorties. The dead money we may see left in the pot should cover us in case we are facing 1 of our outs vs a pp held by the TAG or the open limper.


    A Tight opp may well fold "better" hands than our AK (like 99/TT/JJ) rather than lose another $4.75, and we are holding blockers that make AA/KK slightly less likely for him. If he is an AWARE TAG, and not ust a tight nit, he could well be isolating on the big stack caller of our raise too...

    TAG is probably is on QQ most often if he calls, and even if the open limper has an A, we have enough money in the pot already to risk that "race".

    We are not really worried at all versus the open limper's stack with all the extra money in the pot already.

    If the other large stack will CALL our 4bet light, then we run a stack risk of him being un-able to "give up" a weak pair in a bloated pot the 2/3rds of the time we miss the flop. We cannot check and leave him a "bluff shot" really (if he is aggro as well as loose), but we could consider a bet/fold line to a flop raise (if we miss), or a turn check/fold if we get called. But if/when we HIT, we have also set up a spot that the other big stack may well give us his entire stack.

    I do think a loose opp may be reluctant to call a 4bet light often enough though, that I probably go with the iso raise on the shorties, and squeeze the other big stack out here. If he is a VERY loose caller of a 4bet, a flop lead on anything may get him to fold his marginal pp at least enough of the time to make this a decent play, and if he holds an A with a lesser kicker, he will probably pay us off for max value.

    So I think I'd elect to raise $5.00 more to go, and play the shorties for stacks.

    Hope it helps.

    Last edited by JDean; Tue Feb 07, 2012, 09:25 PM.
    Double Bracelet Winner


    • #3
      Hmm, I think it looks like a pretty standard 4b shove to me. The other big stack is very unlikely to be calling this much action as he really shouldn't be willing to play for 150bb's with any hand in is original flat calling range (and if he is, then AK plays well enough vs. him anyway), and we will be isolating on the shortest stack, if not both short stacks, with a hand that plays well against their ranges.
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      • #4
        Hi again...

        I thought about a 4bet shove tbh...
        ...but there might be too many of our outs burnt to really love that all in immediately.

        The loose guy may call a shove with any pp was my thought...

        I do want to start building at least some side pot though, but maybe $5 is a bit small?

        Thoughts any one?
        Double Bracelet Winner


        • #5
          Hi! guys, thanks for your comments. @JDean BTW The big stack (opp immediately to our left) is TAG and the opp who 3 bet us, I have no reads on him. I was thinking along same line as you guys but instead of going AI or 4 bet to $5, I bumped it up to $7.40. Now this happens......
          Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner
          oopps... what now? We have already committed half of our stack taking us beyond commitment point. So we obviously know now what hand the opp could be 5 betting with, can we fold here and cut our losses or we just have to go with it as we are committed to the pot now? Cheers.


          • #6
            For the size of the pot, I think we gotta call, and hope he is on QQ. He can still be trying to squeeze you, thinking you are iso'ing on the shorties. Even vs KK we still have about 28% equity and are getting 3.7 to 1 on a call.

            I call, and not love it, but I call.
            Last edited by JDean; Wed Feb 08, 2012, 07:36 AM.
            Double Bracelet Winner


            • #7
              Hi again,

              deadeyz you paused the replayer too quickly, we don't know what the players between us do. I assume the guy with .80c is calling, but the other may fold? We don't know the pot size exactly.

              Regardless, I agree with JDean, this is a call. I'm not loving life at this point, but it's a call. Yeah he can have AA, but it is kind of a strange action to flat/back raise with AA here, most TAGs would 3b initially. So we can't discount AA obviously, but there are a few more hands in his range too. Specifically, those will be hands that he might flat your initial range with preflop on this depth of money in order to keep the pot small in position, but now that the action comes back to him like this, he decides are just too strong to fold. And he can't flat call again since if the flop is bad he won't know what to do. So he just jams. Hands like QQ, JJ, or AK I think specifically.

              With the size of the pot now assuming the other guys folded, we'd need about 21% equity. Vs. a range of JJ+ and AK we have about 40%. Anything wider is only that much better for us. In fact his range would have to be ONLY KK and AA for us to fall below our break even equity, and even that is only a small equity mistake at 18%.

              So sigh/call and run good.
              Head Live Trainer
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              4 Time Bracelet Winner


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheLangolier View Post
                So sigh/call and run good.
                Hi! Dave, Thanks again for your comments. I did sigh and I did call but failed to do the last thing as per your suggestion... didn't ran good. I need to work on my "running good" skills. Any suggestion?? Anyways this is how the hand played out So all in all I think I played the hand OK but its just a cooler, not a lot I can do about it. Its one of those situations which ones going to find themselves in every now and then. Its not the first time and definitely won't be the last time. Cheers. *The opp had A,A ofcourse but for some reason the re-player does not show that.
                Last edited by deadeyz; Thu Feb 09, 2012, 02:43 PM. Reason: add. info



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