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Played Poorly!!!

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  • Played Poorly!!!

    I think this was played badly because I was multitabling and cause I tried to slowplay a bit too... should have started betting before or you think she would have stayed with me with the heavy drawed board? Etienne

  • #2
    Ughhh....that was ugly! I think had you shoved after flop she probably would of folded, instead of checking it down. Its hard to say....I probably would of folded 44 had you shoved. Best of luck to you!


    • #3
      Hi Etienne.

      Yes, you kind of slow played yourself into a bad spot here for sure. There were good things you did here too though, but some really bad ones as well in my opinion.

      PRE FLOP:
      Versus the effective stack, calling the 17c EP raise to set mine can be perfectly fine. The smallest stack in the hand has enough to lay you about 20 to 1 implied odds at maximum, and if he has a pretty tight EP raise range, he may well find reason to stack off all of that if you hit.

      The only "worry" you have here is if the EP raiser is loose, and anyone behind you is aggro enough to 3bet you off your set mine. You do not give info to that effect though, so given the quite easy flop decision you will have way more often than not, this seems a good spot to try a set mine.

      This is where you really need to have more info on opponents in order to love checking your top set.

      A slow play has certain "rules" it should follow to be appropriate:

      1) Your hand must be very strong.

      Top set on an all small board would fit that bill, especially versus an EP raiser which should cause many players to hold a stronger value range than would fit this flop.

      2) You probably will chase everyone out if you bet, but you have a good chance of winning a big pot if you check.

      This is very read dependant, and you;d need to know things like pre flop calling ranges, aggression tendencies in betting flop "misses", and how they value draws (do they bet or jsut check or call them).

      3) The free card you give by checking has a good chance of making someone a 2nd best hand.

      Again, you need more info on ranges to say this: the more "big aces" are in the ranges of both opponents the better the chance this will be true.

      4) The free card you give has little chance of someone making a BETTER hand.

      This one is not really certain whether or not you are going to "sweat" giving a free card. You found a set mine on a small pp profitable, so someone else (specifically the BTN) may have found it so too; that means he could have a gut shot or OESD, and giving a free card is a worry. There are no flush draws possible though, so the risk is minimal.

      5) The pot must not yet be very large.

      Going to the flop, the SPR was around 7 or so, and that is a medium SPR. This means the pot was not really large yet, so this reason was present.


      Of the 5 conditions set out by Sklansky, only 2 are clearly here. Given that the pot is reasonably sized at least (if not large), I think I'd favor a bet of somewhere between half and 3/4ths pot here myself, and if that folds out both opp's, so be it.

      The 7, as it turns out, was a TERRIBLE card for you, but in the play of the hand it is not one which would keep me from betting. While it does put a 4 straight on the board, and it does put a possible better set out there, I am thinking that hands with 4s in the make up a very small part of any range that would call an EP raise, and 77 as an over pair on the flop probably would have bet.

      I think I would have favored a bet again of around half to 3/4ths pot (depending upon if both opp's or just 1 stayed in with me).

      Your all in move is just bad Etienne, lacking very specific info on opponents (sorry to be blunt, but it is how I see it).

      When you lead the turn for a near pot size bet (50c into the 59c pot), and the BTN calls, you have to assume he has picked up something on this flop. That something might be a draw only, or it might be a straight or a better set.

      Can a DRAW that did not get there on the river call an all in for 2 times the pot? No.

      Can some top pair 7 hands call a 2 times pot bet? Lacking info on the opp, we have to say no.

      Will a better hand than your set of 6s fold? No...probably not since any draw that was "made" by the river was already there on the turn...

      This means all your river all in did was "value own" you by being sized to fold out worse hands, and cost you the maximum versus better ones.

      I will be honest, I am probably not folding a set of 6s here very often at all (especially without specific info), so if the BTN wants to put me in I am probably losing the max. But I also think that there IS some amount he may well call on this river card with a lesser hand; I would try to bet that amount (again, I'd think it would be right around half pot).

      If he raises all in, I am biting my tongue and calling most likely, but that is entirely different than jamming in myself and making it pretty certain I am only getting called by better.

      So as I see it Etienne, the pre flop action was fine, and while the flop action is not one I'd do very often, you can take calculated risks at times to build a bigger pot than this. Your turn bet was a little too aggro on a 4 straight card board, but not horrendously so; it is a bet that if I had info that the BTN was a calling station type I'd like a lot. The river bet was not very good at all though, and that river bet is what cost you a ton in this hand. Avoiding value owning bets will really save you a lot of losses, as well as increase the amounts you tend to win.

      Hope it helps.

      Last edited by JDean; Wed Jan 25, 2012, 12:41 AM.
      Double Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        Originally posted by Mis T Fire View Post
        Ughhh....that was ugly! I think had you shoved after flop she probably would of folded, instead of checking it down. Its hard to say....I probably would of folded 44 had you shoved. Best of luck to you!
        HI Mis T fire, this is the first post from you I have run across in the HA forum, so Welcome!

        I thought I'd take a moment to address your comment here, mainly because it is related to the "mistake" I saw in Etienne's play on the river...

        Moving all in on the flop is also going to be a somewhat "value owning" action on this flop in a lot of instances.

        The difference on the flop is that you stand a better chance of getting called by a lesser set, or a 2 pair hand, as well as a flopped straight, so there are at least SOME worse hands that might call a flop all in. By the river, we can be pretty sure with the action we saw that 2 pair hands and worse sets are not there (as the BTN checked the flop behind, and flat called the turn bet), but without seeing the action on those streets yet, it is more possible those hands would be there if we moved in on the flop.

        Still, I'd have to ask you: if you have a strong reason to think you have the best hand, why would you want someone drawing to FOLD in a somewhat small pot?

        If the pot were very large in relation to our remaining chips, then your all in on the flop takes on a lot more reason: winning a big pot without further risk is probably worth more than winning a slightly BIGGER pot but running the risk of being drawn out on. Price out draws, take down a big pot right away, and move on...

        But with an open end straight draw having only about a 17.2% chance of hitting on the turn (when you get to bet AGAIN), isn't taking that somewhat small risk by betting an amount that denies pot odds to that draw but remains inviting enough to an oesd that he might call and add value for you, a better choice?

        Sure, that draw will get there some of the time, but the times he doesn't but calls your bet will pay off your losses when he does, and give you more profit besides. "Forcing" him to fold adds nothing extra to your win at all.

        Hope it helps.

        Double Bracelet Winner



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