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Pot control w/ QQ..too nitty?

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  • Pot control w/ QQ..too nitty?

    I had been at this table for a few orbits when this hand came up. I had no notes on this player, but had observed him being a bit on the loose side. The re-raise preflop was instant--I assume he had "raise any bet" checked. (Had not seen him do that before). That really influenced my play post-flop and take a pot control line rather than pushing the QQ. The flop and turn were great for me (river not so much), but I decided to let him bet and just call. Did I give too much weight to that pre-flop insta-raise?

  • #2
    preflop: I like your initial raise, you can also, instead of calling their 3-bet, re-raise them again preflop with a premium hand.

    flop: it looks like this opp is one that always hits bet/raise. You can check here for pot control, you can also raise, as you really only should be behind AA, KK, 77, 99 or maybe A7s.

    turn: the only hand the 4 helps is 44 and they should have dropped earlier with 44. If it were me, I'd have raised either the flop or turn. Since you didn't raise the flop, then I would have the turn.

    river: the K is definitely a scare card, because AK is definitely in the opp's range. I like the call on the river, as you could be beat.

    I think you lost a little value here by not capping preflop or raising the flop, turn or both... but when the K comes on the river, I like the call as you have showdown value, but may not have the best hand.
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    • #3
      Yup, this is weak.

      Consider...

      FLHE differs from NLHE insofar as you never have to worry about any raise you make resulting in a big "test" of your hand strength.

      For pot control purposes, this means you will tend to need to DEFINE the strength of your hand before you go into that mode, not simply adopt that mode right off the bat (like you might in NLHE).

      Let's break down your actions by street...

      PRE FLOP:

      QQ is not only plenty strong enough to raise on (as you did), and call a 3Bet pre flop on (as you did), it is also plenty to cap the betting. This is true even against a pretty tight range. this means not doing so has cost you value.

      The EP limper has called 2 bets after limping, if you hand was good enough to CALL (considering you only have 2 outs to improve), why isn't it good enough to make the 4th bet? you gotta think both villains will call that bet, right?

      If you are ahead this means you have gotten more value into the pot, you've defined your hand better (so that an A or K on the flop means you can really slow down), and if you are wrong and face a dominating pp you;ve learned all this for just 1 extra small bet (it is only an extra cost of 1 bet, since you are going to call the raise anyway).

      The major difference you need to be aware of between LHE and NLHE is that insta-raises like this do NOT necessarily mean the same "strength" as in NLHE. You have to look at the position the bettor was in too. Consider...

      PP tend to play better in smaller fields, right?

      When you raise on the BTN over 1 limper, a medium strength pp might take that as a wider range and seek to isolate on you by getting rid of the limper, right?

      Because of his position, acting after you on this street, but BEFORE the open limper, his chances are going to be pretty decent to either get an extra bet out of the limper, OR force him to fold to 2 bets and get you heads up, right?

      His biggest concern about doing this in NLHE, the fact you may move all in on him, is gone and at worst he is going to face you putting in a 4th bet that defines his hand, right?

      So all in all, it is quite common to see this sort of action in the blind made by a medium pp, or 2 big overs, not just PREMIUM holdings like in NLHE.

      This should certainly be a part of your ranging thoughts in FLHE.

      FLOP:

      It comes pretty dry really for a 3 bet pot.

      A C-Bet in FLHE is almost as obligatory by the person who takes the betting "lead" in limit as in NL, so that should not be something you do not expect.

      Had the limper called his lead, then I'd definately say a flat is fine, and possibly preferably to a raise now, simply because DELAYING your raise until the "big bet" streets may keep 2 customers in to call. You do not have to do that, but you can with your hand strength.

      When the limper does not call however, you want the earlier definition of your hand in case your fears are well founded and you are facing a bigger pp.

      If he 3bets it, you are calling if only because you will only need to win about 20% of the time in a HU FLHE situation to break even on a call line. But if you are ahead, this gets more value in for you. So there is very little reason NOT to raise the flop if you are worried about a bigger pp...

      See?

      Turn and later...

      You've already passed up your best chance to extract value, so when the villain continues betting and you do not try any raise for definition at all, you are essentially leaving money on the table.

      So all in all, your line was entirely too cautious here, and was base upon a very specious piece of info (a timing tell).

      Had this been NL, the error in over estimating the worth of this tell is not nearly as bad, simply because there would be different ranging thoughts at work, and your risk would be far greater. But for limit, if you play this passively you will cost yourself a lot of bets that you could be getting paid, and that lost value will be hard to re-coup in single big pot wins.

      Hope it helps.

      -JDean
      Last edited by JDean; Tue Jan 03, 2012, 10:01 PM.
      Double Bracelet Winner

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      • #4
        Holy cow you guys are fast!
        I'll bbl to study this more carefully, but thanks!

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        • #5
          I agree-I lost a lot of value on this hand.

          Preflop: I lost .10....the limper is almost always going to call another .05, and the SB ain't folding here.

          On the flop: I figure I lost .05-.15 value here. The limper is gone. By re-raising the remaining opp, I'm telling him I have a hand strong enough to take him on. As it turns out, the flop is good for both of us, and he might well have re-raised me...

          on the turn: Lost .10-.30 for the same reasons as above.

          river : not unhappy with what I did here.

          So.... because of the myopic view I held of the hand because of the timing tell, I cost myself some $$.

          In my mind, from that point forward, he had AA or KK...c'est ca, c'est tout. Will definitely work to eliminate that problem and range a little more logically.

          Thanks for the analysis and for exercising my brain a bit!

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          • #6
            too nitty) if to be aggressive is not comfort 4 u , do this 4 some time as aim of your session. hope my english readable)

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            • #7
              I agree, cap pre and raise post flop at some point (and cap if he reraises). So much wild aggression in online limit HE these days we can be beat of course but I'd expect to be up against a lot of worse hands here including small pairs. Would not surprise me at all to see TT cap the flop with you for instance.
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              • #8
                there is no such thing like pot control in limit holdem...

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                • #9
                  I think you have to cap this all the way even on the river
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