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  • 6839416

    7/12/02 6839416

    Post your response below!

  • #2
    Interesting hand.

    First, Ace 4 off UTG. Why, Why, Why do people insist on playing these cards from this position? This is a hand that should be tossed into the muck immediately unless you are sitting on a huge stack or are severely short stacked, and then you should be coming in with a raise, not a limp.

    10-3 suited 1 off button. At first glance, one could easily question this as a terrible call. However, given the chip position of the player (he is the chip leader by over 1K), it might be OK to limp in and see if you can bust someone cheap.

    K-8 suited in SB. No problems completing the action for $75 here with 2 limpers. I'd do the same.

    KQ off in BB. Weak. I'd raise 4x BB here with 3 limpers and try to either win the pot right there or knock the field down to 1 opponent. Limping is a sign of weakness, it is a sign of a player who wants to see the flop cheaply. Make them think about whether it really is worth calling a $450 raise with Ace 4 off and 10 3 suited. Yes, there are players who will limp in EP with AA trying to trap - so lay it down if you are reraised all in. With the second biggest stack at the table and 3 limpers, I'm going to be aggressive here with KQ.

    Post flop:

    Ace and two hearts hit, so weak ace bets out $300. Good feeler bet, let's him see if there is another ace out there. 10 3 suited hit a flush draw and a gutshot straight draw, plus he's the chip leader - so why not, and calls - no problem from me on that one either. King 8 suited gets aggressive with his nut flush draw and goes for the win right there by pushing all in. OK, now here is where the hand gets interesting. Ace rag calls. Why? You could be up against Ace better kicker, a set, or as in this instance a flush draw that has a good shot at hitting. Again, not knowing the makeup of the table makes a difference in analysis, but the player should be folding here faced with a reraise of that size after he made a correct initial feeler bet with his Ace low kicker. 10 3 suited calls as well, thinking his flush draw will be the winner if it hits. It's a questionable call, but he does have this going for him. He is calling $1250 to win $5,000 and still has $3,600 left after doing so. Short stacked or even medium stacked there is no way this play is correct, and even in this instance I still wonder if it is correct calling here.

    4 on the turn. Ace Rag hit his two pair, checks and then calls the 10 3 suited that hit the gusthot straight. I don't really have a problem with Ace Rag calling his last 500 here with two pair, he's already thrown 1700 away, might as well give the rest of it away (sarcasm intended). 500 to win 7K almost requires that you call here with two pair. Again, however, this player should never have been in the hand in the first place.

    I think this hand shows how starting hands can vary based on stack size, and how some players fail to recognize weakness and take advantage of it. Additionally, I see it as an indicator of typical satellite play where people push the boundaries with drawing hands.

    OK, that's enough on this hand.

    Hazy

    Comment


    • #3
      Hazy,

      This was a pot limit hold em satellite. The UTG player was playing very loose and had made feeler and/or bluff bets many times. Each time someone came over the top, he released his hand. The button did not fold many hands either and I was in the SB with K:h:8:h:. I decided to make a move at the pot here to try to win it outright. If a stronger player I respected more called the bet from the button, I might only call the flop and see how the betting comes on the turn and release my hand with still 1k in chips. But, because of the way the table was, I decided to get it in all there being the aggressor in hopes of spiking a heart, not a useless 8 on the river!

      Dan

      Comment


      • #4
        Again, notice I didn't question the play of the K8 suited (must be a reason for that, LOL).

        Hazy

        Comment


        • #5
          10 3 suited hit a flush draw and a gutshot straight draw, plus he's the chip leader - so why not, and calls - no problem from me on that one either.
          If the T3s is going to play on the flop, I would say a pot sized re-raise was in order. I wouldn't want a multi-way pot with this hand.

          Regarding the K8s, I hope they would have folded if they were on deeper money. Taking the discount at bigbet, unless on shallow money, is a sucker bet.

          Comment


          • #6
            I agree with hazy about the A4 UTG play, and the K8 completing the blind.

            I dont agree about the T3...thats garbage any way you cut it, and has no business being in this pot. Period.

            Im also not sure about the KQ. Again, it would depend greatly on who is already in the pot. I think there are situations that Id raise, and situations that Id just check. Im not a big fan of KQ off, its a hand that can get you in a lot of trouble.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hey Denver, glad to see you joining in on these hand analysis! Hopefully, slowly but surely, there will be more participation in this forum...

              DC

              Comment


              • #8
                playing 7 handed, the A/4 offsuit limp really isnt that bad, at least i dont htink so, maybe i would have raised with it. ( i never like limping under the gun, leaves the door open for too many bluffs and steals)
                i think the 10/3 is an aweful call preflop, especially with an utg limper. they just got a lucky flop with the flush draw and a gutshot. i owuld love to have someone call me with 10/3 suited every hand, cause i am going to win far more hands than they. i assume when 5 or 6 people limp preflop, these are the type of hands that the majority of players are holding, but get released post flop. this time the 10/3 just happened to get lucky, just my 2 cents worth.
                jmuzzey lsogc

                Comment


                • #9
                  The day you catch me playing A4o UTG in this type of situation is the day I'll quit poker. Someone will need to put me out of my misery.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Wow, this hand points out why we are all here at school. I lost track of the errors.


                    The only good play on the hand was the limp by dreams. He has a second nut flush draw, and an outside chance (10 to 1 ??) at flopping two pair on the cheap.


                    I know I'll catch flack for it from noodles, but the whole point in limping with a so so hand is to catch big and bust someone while you double or triple up. You have to have the discipline to lay the hand down if you catch a King and get action, as you have a poor kicker.

                    I do question Dream's move on the flop. Here is why. The table composition. If you raise big, you want to win the hand outright here, not go for a flush draw. [These are not people capable of laying down a hand if they had a partial hit.] Even if correct pot odds, which I am not sure it is, this is a tournament. You are certainly getting pot odds to call here.


                    Randy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rggator
                      I know I'll catch flack for it from noodles, but the whole point in limping with a so so hand is to catch big and bust someone while you double or triple up.
                      ???

                      Do I hold the opposite view or something? In fact, I can recall on many occasion stating that the goal in big-bet is to win big pots.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        No offense meant Noodles. Just saying I will occassionally limp with so so hand in an in-between deep and shallow money situation, if it not toooo expensive.

                        Randy/Randall (my Birtish name)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          No offense taken randall geez, I'm not quite that sensitive. I just find it funny that I have seen that type of statement twice now and I haven't held the view they expected in either case. Makes me wonder what you all think I think.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            LOL.


                            Randall

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Preflop
                              1st.....
                              UTG limp with A4o....I dont like this play....to many ways to hit what you want and still lose. Throw it away and take a bathroom break.

                              2nd....
                              T3s calling flop????????????????????????????????? button, LP, MP, EP SB, NO WAY......BB if its free.

                              3rd....K8s completing sb...def here.

                              4th...KQo.....I would have checked it most times....its just a trouble hand.....I like Hazy's comment about raising here....it got me thinking.

                              FLOP play.....hmm where do I start.

                              1st of all A4 should not be there...BUT....if you are gonna be there, its a good play to feel for Aces.

                              T3s....this is exactly why you dont play this....you flop what you want and are drawing dead to the flush but dont know it. The fact that the gutshot draw is there too just makes this hand to good to throw away for most. Again this is a perfect example of why this hand is no good.

                              K8s...Allin??? Dont think I would do that not yet....call the 300 bet...leaves you with 1250...you toss them at the turn if things look worse and there is action. I understand why you did it Dreams, I just wouldn't play it that way.

                              A4.....gotta fold here....but I dont even want to have to make this choice. Hence fold preflop!!!

                              T3...calling the raise......bonehead from the beginning why not now.

                              Ok turn.....

                              first T3 is betting into a dry pot....he has made 2nd nut str8.....if you are going to bet it....put UTG allin.......only thing that hurts T3 (or thinks this is all) is a 3.....3 cards can hurt him on the river....I would say thats close to a lock. If trying to show weakness bet 300.....I dont understand the logic by what he raised.

                              A4 of course will call 2nd 2 pair...inside str8 draw....
                              I remember when I would play this type of hand....and I could fill a book on how many times I was beat with it....just like here....and did not even know it. Glad my thick head has absorbed some info.

                              River...... rag on the river and T3 does not bet....again a chance to eliminate another player and its not taken. Might of been scared UTG would fold.....but hey he wins the same $$$ either way.


                              Ok, I was a bit harsh and I tend to play a tad tighter than most. But even in my loose as a goose days I learned real quick to dump hands like T3s from anywhere. This is also why I think that preflop big raise by BB with KQo....is not a good play....I dont think you would shake and Ax hand or mid pp. If it was possible to make them lay down than yes...but here no....sat def no.

                              Well thats my input.....might be a shade off from others but it is my opinion 8) 8) 8) 8)

                              Ru

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