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i need your opinion on my line here

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest started a topic i need your opinion on my line here

    i need your opinion on my line here

    should i raise prefolp ? raise flop ? reise the turn ?

    [replay hand_id=170841 type=ps title_id=2 showControls=1 themePath=table_PS_560x386.jpg lang=en gameEntity=0 hash=9168281348]

    Info on Vilan -

    he sees lots of flop and reiase a lot.
    Dinamik -

    we had 2 big hand in one of them he tryed to bluff me and i call him with buttom paire.
    in the other one in a pot of 30$ i had JJ in A high board, i called his raises - (he had ace)
    Last edited by fadmin; Mon Nov 14, 2011, 08:49 PM.

  • JDean
    replied
    Originally posted by mtnestegg View Post
    I think his current reg game is live, since he's in the US..unless he trusts the riff raff sites that are still available to us...
    It is largely a matter of "trust" that keeps me from playing on line elsewhere.

    By that I do not mean the RNG, as long as there is a modern RNG I have no concerns about those whatsoever anywhere on line. I mean it just strikes me as silly to complain about an on line shuffle when a HAND SHUFFLE live is so much easier to "fix", especially with so many "math wonks" out there acting as watch dogs on randomness in on line poker. If you are going to sweat an RNG on line and still be willing to play live, you are either a hypocrite or ignorant of the facts and realities.

    I'll be honest, I have played on Stars long before I became a mod here at PSO, and even the other "big" sites were not appealing to me when I could play on them.

    Super-user acct scandals kept me from feeling comfortable at AP/UB.

    Party Poker was closed to me after 06, and I also much prefer the Stars interface once I found it.

    Full Tilt just did not "feel" the same as Stars to me.

    Can't really be fussed to play on the smaller sites even when I could with ease, largely because their game selection just could not compare to Poker Stars.

    AFTER Black Friday, Full Tilt has shown that even a supposedly "reputable" site may have issues paying off their depositors, and only Poker Stars showed CLEARLY they were a site where your money is safe. That is the major reason I would not deposit now on any other site, none of the others have my "faith" like Stars has.

    So for me, it is live, play money on Stars, or no on line poker for my own money at all. I'd feel this way whether I am a PSO moderator or not.
    Last edited by JDean; Wed Nov 16, 2011, 09:31 AM.

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  • JDean
    replied
    Yes, and not even very much of that.

    I'm currently not working.

    I do not really like cash tables on line, and since I am un-employed I would have been un-able to play at any sort of level that could really keep me focused. I prefer tournaments on line and SNG, simply because in cash games I like to see my opponents for the extra info.

    A lot of the way I play cash tables is highly exploitative, and without the ability to see if your target is comfortable or not (at least, not specifically looking for tells), some of that feel is gone.

    MTT and SNGs tend to be FAR better on a daily basis on line though, as the "regular" tournies available live are simply atrocious strutures for the most part.

    So I play mostly MTT and SNG on line (when I can) and play cash at the 1/2, 2/5, and occasionally 5/10 level (rarely, as the 1/2 and 2/5 are so fat here) live.

    That equates to 200NL and 500NL mainly live, although in real terms, the skill levels live seem to be WAY LOWER than on line at the same levels. A 1/2 live game for instances is rarely better than like a 25c/50c or 10c/20c game on line.
    Last edited by JDean; Tue Nov 15, 2011, 11:08 PM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Ibag123 View Post
    opened my eays once again Jdean, thank you very much for this deep review.
    i will defently make better desition next time.
    thanks :]

    by the way just a small question, what is your regular game (50nl\100nl\mtt\s&g).
    just curies tho
    I think his current reg game is live, since he's in the US..unless he trusts the riff raff sites that are still available to us...

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by JDean View Post
    The line you took is very hard to analyze in anything but a monster post.

    Each street you play in Hold 'em effects the situation on later steets, and with what might be a vastly different set of circumstances, the validity of things you may or may not do changes dramatically.

    But I'll try to answer this with an "order of preference" that I'd prefer to follow. Suffice it to say, any CHANGE in the actual action taken would effect the decisions on all subsequent streets, so rather than looking at all the permutations of change, I will look at the situation after the pre flop decision on as they were played.

    This order will be expressed from "best" to "worst" decision.

    PRE FLOP:

    1) RAISE a standard amount, making it about $2.50 to $3.50 to go.

    I rank this as "best" because the most typical beneficial flop you will see will tend to be a 1 pair hand.
    That type of hand can best withstand the extreme pressure a loose aggro player may bring if it is heads up to the flop.
    Since your AK hand is going to be better than the likely loose open range of the raiser, isolating on him is perfectl fine.
    Also, with a standard sizing amount such as this any potential 3bet, either by someone behind you or by the initial raiser, is one you can probably flat without overly committing youself.

    2) RAISE slightly more than a standard amount, on the order of $3.50 to $6.50.

    I rank this as 2nd best because it will tend to accomplish all the same things as the #1 option, but it may be an amount which is slightly more likely to be attacked, either by someone behind you (to iso themselves on the loose raiser with MORE dead money in the pot), or by the initial raiser because it represents a larger win if he can bluff you off of it.

    An iso raise over $6.50 made by the SB would probably be an all-in, and without having a clear idea whether he is doing that move on a truly strong hand or as an iso move, calling his stack may be putting yourself into a LARGER pot than you really want to play. AKo may be a hand you take a race (if that is what you get) for that much though, so it isn't the worst you could do.

    3) FLAT CALL

    This does not iso you on the initial raiser at all, unless everyone behind you has a hand they are un-willing to play even against the wide open raise range of the loose player.

    It does keep the pot small enough so that if someone does attempt to iso behind you, you can probably call and take the flop with GREATER STRENGTH than they may be willing to believe you have, but unless you are pretty sure to induce a similar player to the open raiser to try a wide iso move, this is probably too tricky.

    4) FOLD

    I rank this 4th, and think this is where you are starting to get into the realm of "big mistakes".

    If you are not willing to play AKo versus a player you've tagged as "loose", then you are simply palying WAY too tightly to be profitable.

    5) RAISE an amount which will essentially put anyone else all in or into a "push or fold" decision (on the order of $20+ to go).

    I rank this here because this is a move which is probably getitng called only by BETTER HANDS, and is folding out all worse holdings.

    You will probably find yourself winning a very small pot quite often, but that will not off-set the losses you take when you get called by hands like AA/KK.

    The only reason I do not have an all in move as "worst" overall is because hands like QQ/JJ MIGHT call (or raise), and against those you are getting max value from a race if you go all in.

    Plus, doing this (setting yourself up to call an all in) ensures that if you are going to make the best hand, you will not see your cards in the muck when that happens; all in pre means you WILL get to the river.

    6) RAISE an amount to target the $25 SB stack, on the order of $6.50 to $13

    I rank this as your worst option, because not only does it create a lot of dead money that one of the $60 stacks might want to try raising you off of, but it also still leaves you room to FOLD. There is no need to raise this large when you have a 2/3rds chance to miss the flop, and ANY ONE at this table just calling a big bet like this is going to have much of their stack in. You do not flop an A or K, then what do you do if you face a $15 bet by a $45 stack (who is now 2/3rds in), or when a $45 or $60 stack ships OVER you (if you C-BEt $15)?

    Just a yuck decision.

    FLOP:

    As played, it goes 3 way to the flop, with you in the middle.
    The pot is $3.30

    You bink your top/top hand.

    The loose aggro Villain C-Bets $3.

    Since you did not raise to iso pre flop, there is really no reason not to do so now.

    If the BTN is a reasonable player (you supply no reads), hands like KK/QQ/AA are probably raising pre flop to iso themselves on the loose open raiser (or simply looking to add value to the pot), and KQ type hands are really looking to iso for the same reasons as your AK should have been doing so. K2/Q2 hands are far to weak to overcall into a pot (even with position), so only 22 "fits" the action as a likely hand for the BTN to hold.

    A standard Raise, to around $7.50 to $10.50 to go, is not so much you cannot possibly find a fold if the BTN jams, and an amount toward the top end of that standard raise amount bracket will probably be quite a committing amount for him. Seeing a 3Bet upwards of $25 to $35 to go made by a $65 stack will RARELY be a bluff. So you can get away if he is tight enough to do it only on better, OR you can stack him if he'd do it on worse.

    As for the loose aggro open raiser, raising him an amount like this makes you less vulnerable to any bluff he might try. The pot would grow to upwards of $20 to $25 if he calls, and he'd only have in the neighborhood of $30 or so in his stack. If he is as frequent a bluffer, and as wild a one that you could call on jsut bottom pair, chances are good he'd try launching a turn bet to blow you off the pot; top/top is definately going to be good enough to risk a call with almost 2 to 1 odds versus this type.

    By NOT raising him on this flop, you are keeping the pot too small given the value of your holding versus his range. You risk cards coming which will dry up action he may well give NOW, or you risk giving cards that could beat you, by just checking behind on this flop.

    TURN:

    You do flat call though.

    The $3 flop lead was enough to get rid of the BTN, but by not raising immediately, you've kept the pot at a pretty small $9.31 ("small" because Villain still has $42.50 behind).

    You do get a nice card for you, a K giving you trips with top kicker, and the villain DOES bet again.
    He launches $6.25.

    Now if the pot were BIGGER (in the $20 to $25 range), and he launches a 2/3rds pot bet, the villain would have just $16 left in his stack. He'd be all but forced to call if you put him in.

    If he CHECKS to you in a bigger pot, you can either lead small (in hopes he calls or jams over you), or you can check to induce a very committing river bluff try by this very bluff-y opponent. Either option would probably stand a better chance of getting you more value here than a flat call; you will have flatted 2 big bets, and the villain will HAVE to be worried you are on trips.

    RIVER:

    Despite the "threat" of your 2 flats, he STILL leads for $14.25 on the river into the $21.80 pot (that is his bluffiness), and when you FINALLY come over him, he has no choice but to fold.

    BOTTOM LINE:

    You probbly left at LEAST $15 or so on the table here, if not the entire $22 remaining in this villain's stack.
    That is nearly 1 BI for this 25NL table, and that is FAR too much to miss out on.

    I really think if you'd played this a bit more aggressively earlier, you'd have been stacking a lot more chips.
    opened my eays once again Jdean, thank you very much for this deep review.
    i will defently make better desition next time.
    thanks :]

    by the way just a small question, what is your regular game (50nl\100nl\mtt\s&g).
    just curies tho

    Leave a comment:


  • JDean
    replied
    Originally posted by Puciek View Post
    And you base that "we must raise OTR" on what exactly? What did he bet on 3 streets that will call an all-in OTR and DOESN'T beat us?
    I agree with this 100% in this situation as it was played.

    If the pot were larger though, and built earlier, you CAN value bet the river and get a crying call by worse.

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  • JDean
    replied
    NOTE:

    all the above is predicated on the fact there was 30c in the pot before the villain acted pre.

    That made the EFFECTIVE STACK here 232.5BB.

    That is uber deep.

    50BB or maybe even 100BB deep, villain may c-bet/fold the flop, because he would approach a committment point way sooner, and the size of his stack left after a call or 4bet carries a lot less power.

    200BB+ deep though, I'm NOT afraid of blowing a very bluff-y villain off on the flop with a standard raise sizing.

    Leave a comment:


  • JDean
    replied
    The line you took is very hard to analyze in anything but a monster post.

    Each street you play in Hold 'em effects the situation on later steets, and with what might be a vastly different set of circumstances, the validity of things you may or may not do changes dramatically.

    But I'll try to answer this with an "order of preference" that I'd prefer to follow. Suffice it to say, any CHANGE in the actual action taken would effect the decisions on all subsequent streets, so rather than looking at all the permutations of change, I will look at the situation after the pre flop decision on as they were played.

    This order will be expressed from "best" to "worst" decision.

    PRE FLOP:

    1) RAISE a standard amount, making it about $2.50 to $3.50 to go.

    I rank this as "best" because the most typical beneficial flop you will see will tend to be a 1 pair hand.
    That type of hand can best withstand the extreme pressure a loose aggro player may bring if it is heads up to the flop.
    Since your AK hand is going to be better than the likely loose open range of the raiser, isolating on him is perfectl fine.
    Also, with a standard sizing amount such as this any potential 3bet, either by someone behind you or by the initial raiser, is one you can probably flat without overly committing youself.

    2) RAISE slightly more than a standard amount, on the order of $3.50 to $6.50.

    I rank this as 2nd best because it will tend to accomplish all the same things as the #1 option, but it may be an amount which is slightly more likely to be attacked, either by someone behind you (to iso themselves on the loose raiser with MORE dead money in the pot), or by the initial raiser because it represents a larger win if he can bluff you off of it.

    An iso raise over $6.50 made by the SB would probably be an all-in, and without having a clear idea whether he is doing that move on a truly strong hand or as an iso move, calling his stack may be putting yourself into a LARGER pot than you really want to play. AKo may be a hand you take a race (if that is what you get) for that much though, so it isn't the worst you could do.

    3) FLAT CALL

    This does not iso you on the initial raiser at all, unless everyone behind you has a hand they are un-willing to play even against the wide open raise range of the loose player.

    It does keep the pot small enough so that if someone does attempt to iso behind you, you can probably call and take the flop with GREATER STRENGTH than they may be willing to believe you have, but unless you are pretty sure to induce a similar player to the open raiser to try a wide iso move, this is probably too tricky.

    4) FOLD

    I rank this 4th, and think this is where you are starting to get into the realm of "big mistakes".

    If you are not willing to play AKo versus a player you've tagged as "loose", then you are simply palying WAY too tightly to be profitable.

    5) RAISE an amount which will essentially put anyone else all in or into a "push or fold" decision (on the order of $20+ to go).

    I rank this here because this is a move which is probably getitng called only by BETTER HANDS, and is folding out all worse holdings.

    You will probably find yourself winning a very small pot quite often, but that will not off-set the losses you take when you get called by hands like AA/KK.

    The only reason I do not have an all in move as "worst" overall is because hands like QQ/JJ MIGHT call (or raise), and against those you are getting max value from a race if you go all in.

    Plus, doing this (setting yourself up to call an all in) ensures that if you are going to make the best hand, you will not see your cards in the muck when that happens; all in pre means you WILL get to the river.

    6) RAISE an amount to target the $25 SB stack, on the order of $6.50 to $13

    I rank this as your worst option, because not only does it create a lot of dead money that one of the $60 stacks might want to try raising you off of, but it also still leaves you room to FOLD. There is no need to raise this large when you have a 2/3rds chance to miss the flop, and ANY ONE at this table just calling a big bet like this is going to have much of their stack in. You do not flop an A or K, then what do you do if you face a $15 bet by a $45 stack (who is now 2/3rds in), or when a $45 or $60 stack ships OVER you (if you C-BEt $15)?

    Just a yuck decision.

    FLOP:

    As played, it goes 3 way to the flop, with you in the middle.
    The pot is $3.30

    You bink your top/top hand.

    The loose aggro Villain C-Bets $3.

    Since you did not raise to iso pre flop, there is really no reason not to do so now.

    If the BTN is a reasonable player (you supply no reads), hands like KK/QQ/AA are probably raising pre flop to iso themselves on the loose open raiser (or simply looking to add value to the pot), and KQ type hands are really looking to iso for the same reasons as your AK should have been doing so. K2/Q2 hands are far to weak to overcall into a pot (even with position), so only 22 "fits" the action as a likely hand for the BTN to hold.

    A standard Raise, to around $7.50 to $10.50 to go, is not so much you cannot possibly find a fold if the BTN jams, and an amount toward the top end of that standard raise amount bracket will probably be quite a committing amount for him. Seeing a 3Bet upwards of $25 to $35 to go made by a $65 stack will RARELY be a bluff. So you can get away if he is tight enough to do it only on better, OR you can stack him if he'd do it on worse.

    As for the loose aggro open raiser, raising him an amount like this makes you less vulnerable to any bluff he might try. The pot would grow to upwards of $20 to $25 if he calls, and he'd only have in the neighborhood of $30 or so in his stack. If he is as frequent a bluffer, and as wild a one that you could call on jsut bottom pair, chances are good he'd try launching a turn bet to blow you off the pot; top/top is definately going to be good enough to risk a call with almost 2 to 1 odds versus this type.

    By NOT raising him on this flop, you are keeping the pot too small given the value of your holding versus his range. You risk cards coming which will dry up action he may well give NOW, or you risk giving cards that could beat you, by just checking behind on this flop.

    TURN:

    You do flat call though.

    The $3 flop lead was enough to get rid of the BTN, but by not raising immediately, you've kept the pot at a pretty small $9.31 ("small" because Villain still has $42.50 behind).

    You do get a nice card for you, a K giving you trips with top kicker, and the villain DOES bet again.
    He launches $6.25.

    Now if the pot were BIGGER (in the $20 to $25 range), and he launches a 2/3rds pot bet, the villain would have just $16 left in his stack. He'd be all but forced to call if you put him in.

    If he CHECKS to you in a bigger pot, you can either lead small (in hopes he calls or jams over you), or you can check to induce a very committing river bluff try by this very bluff-y opponent. Either option would probably stand a better chance of getting you more value here than a flat call; you will have flatted 2 big bets, and the villain will HAVE to be worried you are on trips.

    RIVER:

    Despite the "threat" of your 2 flats, he STILL leads for $14.25 on the river into the $21.80 pot (that is his bluffiness), and when you FINALLY come over him, he has no choice but to fold.

    BOTTOM LINE:

    You probbly left at LEAST $15 or so on the table here, if not the entire $22 remaining in this villain's stack.
    That is nearly 1 BI for this 25NL table, and that is FAR too much to miss out on.

    I really think if you'd played this a bit more aggressively earlier, you'd have been stacking a lot more chips.
    Last edited by JDean; Tue Nov 15, 2011, 11:48 AM.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by ketchup143 View Post
    this situation is pretty simple giving the nature of our "simple minded" opponent. bet ur big hands big and ur small hands small. this is a big hand and we need to be raising to get paid off for it. if he is taking two stabs at this pot with air--the river being a pretty significant stab-- i would assume he has something here. maybe we don't raise the flop, im a little flexible with that. but u definitely need to raise preflop and the river, and definitely need to flat the turn to give our opponent one last reason to think we're weak
    And you base that "we must raise OTR" on what exactly? What did he bet on 3 streets that will call an all-in OTR and DOESN'T beat us?
    Last edited by fadmin; Tue Nov 15, 2011, 12:03 AM.

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  • JWK24
    replied
    I'd have raised preflop. I like the call on the flop, especially with an opponent that will continue to barrel. On the turn, I like the call too, as if the opp keeps betting, then they will probably bet the river again.. so you can get more out of them. Definitely raise on the river.

    Now... if you raised pre and the opp shut down and checked on any of the streets, then I'd definitely be making a value bet. If the opp wants to make the value bet for you, so be it... but if they don't bet, you need to get the value bet in.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Puciek View Post
    Since he is lose pref, I defo wanna raise it and charge him to come along with crap (and position ourself well for a c-bluff OTF).
    But calling is OK too, you lose some value but also lower variance. In no limit this may be the case (don't mistake it with FL where this is not acceptable).

    Flop is a bingo for you, you got TPTK, it's pretty dry and there is no single reason to raise here so calling is the best option and if he doesn't fire the turn, take the lead (or check for pot controll is bad card like A falls).

    Turn is our moneymaker, we are 90% sure we have the best hand and he is either airballing or have a hand like QJ. Since he bets, there is still no single reason for us to raise here, calling makes us look like we have a bluff catcher that may not sustain 3-bet OTR.

    River is a complete blank and he fires. I don't think that there is much value in raising here (because what really calls us here? He most likely will fold anything but Kx/QQ/22/55) so I opt to just calling here. We really won't miss much value from here, we save ourself if he got that narrow range that beats us, and we get to see his hand.
    this situation is pretty simple giving the nature of our "simple minded" opponent. bet ur big hands big and ur small hands small. this is a big hand and we need to be raising to get paid off for it. if he is taking two stabs at this pot with air--the river being a pretty significant stab-- i would assume he has something here. maybe we don't raise the flop, im a little flexible with that. but u definitely need to raise preflop and the river, and definitely need to flat the turn to give our opponent one last reason to think we're weak

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Since he is lose pref, I defo wanna raise it and charge him to come along with crap (and position ourself well for a c-bluff OTF).
    But calling is OK too, you lose some value but also lower variance. In no limit this may be the case (don't mistake it with FL where this is not acceptable).

    Flop is a bingo for you, you got TPTK, it's pretty dry and there is no single reason to raise here so calling is the best option and if he doesn't fire the turn, take the lead (or check for pot controll is bad card like A falls).

    Turn is our moneymaker, we are 90% sure we have the best hand and he is either airballing or have a hand like QJ. Since he bets, there is still no single reason for us to raise here, calling makes us look like we have a bluff catcher that may not sustain 3-bet OTR.

    River is a complete blank and he fires. I don't think that there is much value in raising here (because what really calls us here? He most likely will fold anything but Kx/QQ/22/55) so I opt to just calling here. We really won't miss much value from here, we save ourself if he got that narrow range that beats us, and we get to see his hand.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Ibag123 View Post
    ok, thank you very much for your opinion :]

    i know a riase preflop could be optimal, but i didnt want to scare him off(alltho i can easly be out flop, but i took my chances)
    don't be afraid to raise preflop against an opponent like this. that's not going to scare them away, especially if he bluffs 70% of time. i would raise the flop as well. unless ur putting him on complete air, he's definitely going to call at least one barrel. he might even having top pair himself, or 2nd pair good kicker, and be too donkish to get off it. if u had raise the flop, he's probably going to value bet a smaller amount of the turn, maybe even a minbet. i would just flat the turn. then i would have shoved the river as u did

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by IpushHard View Post
    Remember, my opinion is only MY opinion. ha
    I concede that there are much more experienced players here who will surely chime in.

    The way I see it, you need to raise AK preflop to thin the riffraff from the field, minimize your chances of being out flopped, and extract value by building the pot.

    Since you did hit the flop I think its reasonable to let a loose player (as Langolier would put it...) "continue to make his favorite mistake" by letting him bluff at it. So yes, flatting the flop bet is another good way to play it.

    Flatting the turn (I had said "checked") may give up some value, but here you may give your opponent the chance to put you on Q's and (bluff) take the lead by repping K's (just as he did leading into you).
    I would have shoved the river just as you did, but maybe a smaller value bet gets a call from Q's.

    ok, thank you very much for your opinion :]

    i know a riase preflop could be optimal, but i didnt want to scare him off(alltho i can easly be out flop, but i took my chances)

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Remember, my opinion is only MY opinion. ha
    I concede that there are much more experienced players here who will surely chime in.

    The way I see it, you need to raise AK preflop to thin the riffraff from the field, minimize your chances of being out flopped, and extract value by building the pot.

    Since you did hit the flop I think its reasonable to let a loose player (as Langolier would put it...) "continue to make his favorite mistake" by letting him bluff at it. So yes, flatting the flop bet is another good way to play it.

    Flatting the turn (I had said "checked") may give up some value, but here you may give your opponent the chance to put you on Q's and (bluff) take the lead by repping K's (just as he did leading into you).

    I would have shoved the river just as you did, but maybe a smaller value bet gets a call from Q's.

    Last edited by fadmin; Mon Nov 14, 2011, 09:23 PM.

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