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  • Kerching

    8th hand into a .25c 90 man S&G Mostly players are limpy limpy

  • #2
    Another piece of monkey magic Same 25c S&G final table Big stack acting like a bully PokerStars Tournament #464659023, No Limit Hold'em Buy-In: $0.23/$0.02 USD 90 players Total Prize Pool: $20.70 USD Tournament started 2011/11/05 5:21:00 WET [2011/11/05 1:21:00 ET] Dear spike8998, You finished the tournament in 3rd place. A USD 2.89 award has been credited to your Real Money account.
    Last edited by spike8998; Sat Nov 05, 2011, 10:50 AM.


    • #3
      Spike, both these hands illustrate 2 sides of the same coin really:
      Passive play in pots that stand to grow to a significant size in relation to your stack is NOT the way to go.

      What you will tend to wind up doing if you elect a passive line is:

      A) LOSE the ability to pot control quickly; this invests you deeper than you want to be invested to try a passive line...
      and that...
      B) Forces you to be "card dependant" if you continue passively...
      C) Even if you HIT your card, you may end up getting less VALUE than you might have with a more aggressive line.

      Part of the theory of pot control is to minimize your stack risk by keeping the pot SMALL in relation to the size of your stack.

      In the 1st hand here, the multi-way nature of the pot figured to build the pot to the point where any bet would cost you a big part of your stack; you most definately do not want to be card dependant in that situation.

      In the 2nd hand here, you started with a stack too short to play a "standard" line, and could figure to have a good part of your chips in the mix early on. Again, the last thing you want to be in that spot is card dependant.

      You really have to assess the strength of your hand's potential if it looks like you are going to be playing a "big pot", and if that strength calls for it, you need to be committing to the pot EARLY. As played in both of these hands, you passively "allowed" your stack to be fed into the pot. That passivity left a big part of your stack "exposed" in both hands, and since you failed to bet or raise UNTIL you had a made hand in either of these instances, the only chance you had to re-coup your large investments was to hit your hand.

      In both these instances, I see nothing wrong wih your "open check" on the flop(s).
      By checking oop both times, you gain "relative position" on your opponents, and you get to see what will happen; if they check around, you can possibly bink your hand form the "free card". The "problem" I have with your play is that in both instances you passed up a chance to use aggression. Consider...

      In hand #1 you flop a monster draw.
      The problem is that the lead bettor got called by EVERYONE at the table.
      When that happened, you lost any ability to "pot control".
      You need to leverage the STRENGTH of your draw to either stand NOW (while you still have max chance to hit your outs), or FOLD before you get tangled up in an out of control pot.
      By calling along, you only serve to expose your hand to either a turn card "miss" which is all too likely to see a bet that prices you off your draw (you really did not have good odds to continue past the turn here Spike), OR see a card that hits you hard but possibly one that dries up your action.
      Neither is very good for you at all...

      In hand #2, flatting that min raise from the big stack is not great.
      Your stack had some good FE vs the raiser, since doubling you would have cost him about 25% of his stack.
      If it was the button caller that worried you, against him you could have take 50%; plus, if the button did not have a hand he was willing to 3bet on, do you really think he has one he'd call off half his stack on?

      OK, you called pre flop though, despite having only aobut 13BB behind; let's say the initial raiser was very "balanced" in his actions, and you are un-sure whether he is strong or weak when he min raises...
      The only rationale for calling that min raise is that you are going to be ready to stand on a strongly beneficial flop.
      With the nut flush draw, and 2 board overs, you are not going to get a much more beneficial flop than that (save 2 pair+).
      Again though, like in the first hand, an open check is fine as it buys you relative position, and either gives a free card or info on the strength of the opponents' hands.
      But when the open raiser min bets again, what are you waiting for?
      You are going to get yourself about 25% to 30% invested, and become card dependant again?

      As played out, you miss the turn, but pick up oesd outs to go with the nut flush draw.
      You check AGAIN, and this time the villain checks behind you.
      When you bink the river, you open jam for about a pot size bet, and the villain folds.

      See how by failing to commit earlier in the hand, cards came which likely dried up your action?

      So all in all Spike, you may want to check out these PSO Videoes:

      These videoes may help you indetify spots where greater aggression is called for with your drawing hands.

      It worked out well for you in these 2 hands, but if you keep making these sorts of passive plays in teh wrong spots, it will come back to bite you in the "bottom line".

      Hope it helps!

      Double Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        1st hand: I'm fine with the preflop call on the flop I'm check/shoving there. With a pair+straight+flush draw, on your stack size, you have way too much equity to not just shove it in here. You'll get folds some of the time, and when called you still have a ton of equity vs. anything.

        2nd hand: While I think just jamming ATs preflop is probably the best play, calling isn't bad. But the flop is a textbook check/shove spot. Nearly half the time you will improve to the best hand (about 43% equity vs. most ranges) but over half the time you won't or will just get a fold when you make your hand. Hand equity+fold equity means you really should be shoving your nut flush draw on 12.5 BBs. By just calling you reduce yourself to just your chances of improving to the best hand as well as risking a fold when you hit. And you're risking calling off precious chips from your tiny stack that you need for fold equity. Ship it!
        4 Time Bracelet Winner



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