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The second nuts facing a Big reraise on the flup

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  • The second nuts facing a Big reraise on the flup

    hey guys, i realy liked your anyalis on my last hand and i got another hand that crosed my mind a few times .

    its the first servel hands of the torny i was the big blind we got a few limprs preflop, i had 7-10.
    i flopped the second nuts strghit (8-9-J Rainbow) i desided not to slow play it and bet it first,
    i bet 100 on 100 pot, a guy after me called - and the guy after him raised to 400 ! (starting stack 1500) - i gave it a bit of thgoth and desided he floped the nuts (i guessed any poket pair will raise pre flop - 88\99\JJ so i took a set out of considertion) he could had 2 pairs\ TPTK that played too loose on this flop, i desided to let the hand go,

    what do you guys think ? call? reraise allin? good fold? bad fold ?

    here is the hand :

    PokerStars Game #69366999683: Tournament #458512311, $0.23+$0.02 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2011/10/22 21:45:44 CET [2011/10/22 15:45:44 ET]
    Table '458512311 4' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
    Seat 1: DudoPRC (2060 in chips)
    Seat 2: Bimboacke (1320 in chips)
    Seat 3: gordo CAImdp (380 in chips)
    Seat 5: Ibag123 (1470 in chips)
    Seat 6: mrsawman136 (2580 in chips)
    Seat 7: Gorian20 (1290 in chips)
    Seat 9: crashngrab (1430 in chips)
    gordo CAImdp: posts small blind 10
    Ibag123: posts big blind 20
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Ibag123 [Ts 7h]
    mrsawman136: calls 20
    Gorian20: folds
    crashngrab: calls 20
    DudoPRC: folds
    Bimboacke: calls 20
    gordo CAImdp: calls 10
    Ibag123: checks
    *** FLOP *** [9h 8s Js]
    gordo CAImdp: checks
    LakyFish is connected
    m.f.maxi is connected
    Ibag123: bets 100
    mrsawman136: calls 100
    crashngrab: raises 320 to 420
    Bimboacke: folds
    gordo CAImdp: folds
    Ibag123: folds
    mrsawman136: calls 320
    *** TURN *** [9h 8s Js] [Ac]
    mrsawman136: checks
    crashngrab: bets 990 and is all-in
    mrsawman136: folds
    Uncalled bet (990) returned to crashngrab
    crashngrab collected 1040 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 1040 | Rake 0
    Board [9h 8s Js Ac]
    Seat 1: DudoPRC folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: Bimboacke (button) folded on the Flop
    Seat 3: gordo CAImdp (small blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 5: Ibag123 (big blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 6: mrsawman136 folded on the Turn
    Seat 7: Gorian20 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: crashngrab collected (1040)



    By the way how do i post the hand in a video mode ? like evryone alse does ?

  • #2
    Pre Flop:

    Obviously you aren't folding your BB when you can check it. You gotta love those situations.

    FLOP:

    Your T7 hits "gin" when it flops a straight.

    I think your lead is fine, as long as you suspect it will get CALLED by lesser hands often enough.
    Obviously, a pot size bet versus loose callers is going to get you more value...

    Keep in mind though, the strength of your hand is great enough that you really do not want to bet people OUT of the pot, in case they are just drawing, or hold a pair and a draw. agaisnt disciplined players, on this coordinated board you are not likely to see a pot sized bet called by a 1 pair hand very often. A half pot bet will serve to deny odds to draws, and is much more liekly to get CALLED...which is what you want.

    What was your thought at the time about your opponents' ability to FOLD?

    That is the determining question on whether your pot size flop lead was good or not...

    next...

    When the first guy calls you, then the other guy re-raises you, I do NOT like your fold...

    Yes, there is a QT that might be ahead of you, but if that is there, so be it. You hold the 2nd nut hand, and this guy LIMPED...

    QT is definately in a lot of people's limp range, but so are hands like J9/J8/JT/88/99, and a lot of people will bet hard at this pot with those sorts of holdings. If you are going to immediately see the "threat" from a single hand to your 2nd nut hand on the flop, you are really playing a bit too scared...

    I think you;d have been better served to FLAT this hand here if you thought there was ANY chance the raiser would muck a 2 pair or set, and get the rest of your stack in on the turn.

    If you do not think the raiser will muck strong hands like a set, then you probably should just jam right then, over the top. He will likely call you often enough, and you will be AHEAD often enough, to make it worthwhile.

    If he calls and shows down QT, and you lose, so be it.

    But your 2nd nut straight here is just too strong to dump.
    Last edited by JDean; Sun Oct 23, 2011, 01:29 AM.
    Double Bracelet Winner

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    • #3
      Originally posted by JDean View Post
      Pre Flop:

      Obviously you aren't folding your BB when you can check it. You gotta love those situations.

      FLOP:

      Your T7 hits "gin" when it flops a straight.

      I think your lead is fine, as long as you suspect it will get CALLED by lesser hands often enough.
      Obviously, a pot size bet versus loose callers is going to get you more value...

      Keep in mind though, the strength of your hand is great enough that you really do not want to bet people OUT of the pot, in case they are just drawing, or hold a pair and a draw. agaisnt disciplined players, on this coordinated board you are not likely to see a pot sized bet called by a 1 pair hand very often. A half pot bet will serve to deny odds to draws, and is much more liekly to get CALLED...which is what you want.

      What was your thought at the time about your opponents' ability to FOLD?
      they wont fold any top paire\top two

      That is the determining question on whether your pot size flop lead was good or not...

      next...

      When the first guy calls you, then the other guy re-raises you, I do NOT like your fold...

      Yes, there is a QT that might be ahead of you, but if that is there, so be it. You hold the 2nd nut hand, and this guy LIMPED...

      QT is definately in a lot of people's limp range, but so are hands like J9/J8/JT/88/99, and a lot of people will bet hard at this pot with those sorts of holdings. If you are going to immediately see the "threat" from a single hand to your 2nd nut hand on the flop, you are really playing a bit too scared...

      thinking about it your probebly right, i have seen guy over bet with top paire\ tope two in this kindda tournament, i just thgoth it was too early in the tornament to risk it all with the second nuts
      I think you;d have been better served to FLAT this hand here if you thought there was ANY chance the raiser would muck a 2 pair or set, and get the rest of your stack in on the turn.

      If you do not think the raiser will muck strong hands like a set, then you probably should just jam right then, over the top. He will likely call you often enough, and you will be AHEAD often enough, to make it worthwhile.

      If he calls and shows down QT, and you lose, so be it.

      But your 2nd nut straight here is just too strong to dump.
      thank you for your post :] i think i learned something new that you said, that this hand will be ahead 80% of the time and it worth the call in the long run

      Comment


      • #4
        Q 10 is in their limp range, but so are all the missed flush draws (so far), along with sets or pairs above the board.. but they'd normally raise preflop.

        early in a tourney, it's tough and is probably a fold, as the reward probably isn't worth the risk. If it was later in the tourney, I'm shoving the flop.
        Super-Moderator



        6 Time Bracelet Winner


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        • #5
          Originally posted by JWK24 View Post
          Q 10 is in their limp range, but so are all the missed flush draws (so far), along with sets or pairs above the board.. but they'd normally raise preflop.

          early in a tourney, it's tough and is probably a fold, as the reward probably isn't worth the risk. If it was later in the tourney, I'm shoving the flop.
          ye was thinking the same way tho, by the way - how do i get a video mode for the hand ?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ibag123 View Post
            ye was thinking the same way tho, by the way - how do i get a video mode for the hand ?
            http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...r-Instructions
            Super-Moderator



            6 Time Bracelet Winner


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ibag123 View Post
              ye was thinking the same way tho, by the way - how do i get a video mode for the hand ?
              How about this situation for you...

              Let's say SAME stack sizes, same opponents.

              This time flop comes 2h 7d 8c.

              This time you got to see the flop with 77, and flopped a set.

              You lead, and are raised the same amount. Are you folding?

              Most people would say "hell no! I'm never folding a set on this board..."
              ...and they'd be RIGHT to think that too. As the only hand you are behind is 88, and as that makes up a tiny portion of the potential raise range of many aggressive Villain's, folding is out of the question.

              This is pretty much the same as the situation you were in from your post:

              1 hand can beat you
              That 1 hand is certainly in the RANGE of a most limpers.

              The only thing is, in THIS spot (holding the 2nd nut set) if you are "wrong", you will likely have only 1 out to win, versus 3 outs to a CHOP if you are wrong in the hand you were in from your example.

              If you are going to fold the 2nd nut hand to a raise, does that mean you are going to wait only until you have the absolute nuts to play a hand?

              If you do that, you are playing scared poker indeed.
              Double Bracelet Winner

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              • #8
                I'm looking at this hand and personally I can't find a fold here no matter how hard I look. We have a great shot to double up here. Sure QT is in his limping range. But so are sets (at least 88/99, maybe he raises JJ fine), all 2 pair combos, and a lot of draws. Even if we don't think they'd raise a straight or flush draw, they might well raise a combo draw (pair+draw or str8+flush draw). Running our equity against all the 2 pair+ combos (except JJJ) and combo draws, we're 72%.

                If they have QT or manage to draw out on me, so be it. I will happily take a 72% chance to double up on level one, I'm not good enough to pass that big of an edge.
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