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Anything I Could or Should Have Done Differently With This Hand?

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  • Anything I Could or Should Have Done Differently With This Hand?

    Background: It's early in the tournament and I have >30BB when I am dealt AA in UTG +2. UTG folds, UTG+1 limps (his stats are 23/10 over 143 hands -- I've played with him before but don't have any notes, so he must not have done anything remarkable). I raise to only 3.5x because I want to be called, the table seems fairly tight, and I think if I raise 4x or more I'm likely to only take down the miniscule blinds. Everyone at the table DOES fold, except for the limper, who calls. You can watch the replay below to see how the hand played out. My questions are: 1) Should I have made a bigger bet on the flop due to the draw-heavy board? I was more inclined to put out a raise that would be called rather than to try and induce a fold, because lately I've been operating under the principle that I can't live in fear of draws, especially against only one opponent. 2) Should I have made a pot-sized bet, or even gotten it all in, on the turn after being check-called on the flop, rather than the 2/3 pot bet that I made? I felt that the bet I made was large enough to deny odds for drawing. Even though it turns out the guy was apparently ignorant of odds and played the hand like a calling station, and I probably couldn't have gotten him off it with a stick of dynamite -- disregarding the actual results, in principle, should I have made a larger bet? 3) The moment he stuck out a sizable bet on the river (without hesitation, I might add), should I have given him credit for having hit the flush, changed my plan for the hand, and folded, or was I right to get the money in with my set of aces despite the possibility of his being ahead at that point? I'm really confused as to whether I played this one optimally. Thanks in advance for your help! ~Luv
    Last edited by ILuvPoker77; Sun Oct 16, 2011, 02:35 AM.

  • #2
    Hello Luv ,

    The trouble with trying to deny opponents the odds to call is , if you then call there value bet , their draw against the immediate odds (exercising implied odds) becomes justified . However in this case you were rightly trying to get the absolute maximum from your hand ... commendable .

    Had you shoved all in on the turn he would get pot odds of 1.5:1 with a drawing hand against an absolute monster of AAA's .however , this was early in the tourney with blinds of 40 chips and stacks of 1400+ chips with a monster hand & 2 streets of value still to play , therefore I really liked the size of your turn bet . If the player is going to pay over the odds and call anyway , they ought ot be charged big time for doing it .

    Difficult lay down - AAA's ... with only 3 suited cards on the board to the flush hand that could beat you .

    You would have still had 18BB if you had folded on the river , which still gives you a chance to proceed . But with over half your stack in the pot already there is the issue of already being pot committed .

    Always tough to go out of a tourney early with such a great hand . I myself was today railed early in a micro stake 'SitnGo' by an opponent holding J9os on a flop of ... 3c Ts 5h - my hand was Pocket AA's and the turn came a Qs and the river an 8s . I felt strongly the opponent should never have been in the hand at any point & neither calling pot sized bets , but some of them do and sometimes it costs us .

    I think when we charge our opponents the maximum to draw , we must try to avoid paying them off when they hit and demand value . But there is much more to it than that I have been told .

    Of course your situation was one where you had become pot committed . This is where I shall look forward to the PSO pro's responses because :

    If you know the opponent has hit the flush and that is the only reason they are betting - can we call with a potentially beaten hand that is so very very strong and already committed .

    I think it comes down to how often the opponent might be bluffing and how often he is betting the river with a lesser hand - than your absolute monster of AAA's , that determines the call . To be more profitable than not .

    I shall enjoy the more calculated replies that PSO staff will offer .

    Last edited by JARGON1977; Sun Oct 16, 2011, 03:40 AM.


    • #3
      Luv the preflop raise. It's perfect. On the flop I think you should bet more to build a pot. It's gonna take a gross board for you to fold your AA especially since you have the . That ace on the turn is a super mixed bag. It improves you to a set, but how much does it really change the hand? It puts you ahead of his slowplayed sets and 34, and that's it (unless you think he can have Q3 or Q4). It's unlikely to have helped him in anyway and is likely to just be a scare card. If he has QJ he can't like it, and since you have AA it's unlikely for him to have the 4th one. At the same time that flush draw is still out there and you can definitely still get value from it (as well as the 56 straight draw). Now, just because he can have a draw doesn't mean he has to--he can also have a weaker made hand. At this point you need to make your decision whether to take your hand all the way or if there's any river card you can fold on. With top set you're really hoping he has a smaller set, but that's unlikely. Anyhow, unless you're against a very aggressive player who's more likely to have nothing/a draw and bet at you than he is to have a weaker hand/draw and call you must get your value now. Why? You are afraid of a bad card on the river. It's not that you're ever planning on folding the river, but if the scary flush card or straight card comes on the river, your opponent may get scared and be less likely to pay you off with his weaker hands. Since you can't ever fold the river, you need to go all in on the turn. This prevents giving him the river freeroll with his draws. If he misses he's not gonna put a penny in on the river since you're never folding, and if he hits he's always getting called. It would be nicer if your shove were smaller compared to the size of the pot, but you would have had to set that up with a bigger flop bet. (That's why you do try to build bigger pots with your bigger hands. You want to maximize your value for the hand.) I think a bet of about 250-300 on the flop and then shoving the turn would look quite natural and can get called by a ton of worse hands. That would be my preferred play.
      4 Time Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        Thanks for your feedback, JARGON and Oriholic.

        Oriholic, I suspected it might have been better played the way you described, and it's educational to have that confirmed. I have learned some things from posting this hand.


        • #5
          Originally posted by oriholic View Post

          Since you can't ever fold the river, you need to go all in on the turn. This prevents giving him the river freeroll with his draws. If he misses he's not gonna put a penny in on the river since you're never folding, and if he hits he's always getting called.
          I am a little bit confused by this thought process. At the level we play at, where players are either super aggressive or super passive, I see many players bet out on missed draws, hoping that you have a weak hand and will fold. I also see many calling the all in on the turn with nothing more than a draw. I am sure most of us have seen this ourselves many times.

          So what is better? All in on the turn, villain calls and misses you double up. All in on turn villain calls and hits, and you are out. All in on turn and villain folds and you win a smallish pot

          The other scenarios, similar bet sizing as luv made, villain misses but still jams and you double up; or as in the hand itself, villain hits and jams and you are committed to call and lose; or you could make an inspired fold and still be alive.

          A lot of these are spots that we see recurring again, again and again, so although I do not wish to sound results orientated, it would be nice to win more than we lose.



          • #6
            You can't bet a missed draw if you have no fold equity. That's just suicide. You're throwing the rest of your stack into the abyss.
            4 Time Bracelet Winner



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