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Where did I go wrong?

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  • Where did I go wrong?

  • #2
    I don't normally play this passive...


    • #3
      Did you "go wrong" here really?

      The villain is a different type completely than your last hand, and your hand value is different too.


      You hold AKs, a "premium hand", especially at a short handed table.
      Based on that alone, MOST of the time you are torn between 2 decisions: call or raise.
      Either can be correct under the right circumstances, so it is the knowledge of the factors at work which must cause you to tip one way of the other.

      You elect call.

      To me, some of the factors I'd like to see to tip me toward calling (and away from raising) are:

      - Low fold frequency in either opponent
      (a 3bet here will still see you MISSING the flop about 2/3rds the time. You really want to see at least some fold frequency, either to 3bets or to C-bets, to tilt you toward a raise pre. If you DO hit the flop, the lack of fold frequency in the villains work to their detriment, and you can make up much of the value you do not get into the pot pre flop.)

      - Large C-Bet sizing
      (Again, this tendency works to the detriment to the opponents if you hit and they've hit less, and it allows to you fold CHEAPER if you air ball the flop)

      Things like loose start standards, extreme opponent post flop aggression, and a strong tendency to bluff HARD at pots would all argue toward me choosing to 3Bet pre-flop. That would tend to build a bigger pot earlier to exploit the weakness of my opponents, and also put me deeper invested into the pot so I can become less bluff-able.

      So we cannot say you went "wrong" on the pre flop decision without more info...


      The board is pretty coordinated (all broadway, making a straight or 2 pair more likely), and you hold top/top with the nut draw.
      You elect to check/call 70% pot size bet.

      Your holding is pretty solid, and in MOST spots I think I'd prefer an immediate check/raise, or an immediate lead to induce a raise, rather than the check/call.

      Factors that might weigh toward CALLING, rather than making a donk lead or a C/R attempt, might be:

      - Someone who will fire strongly on C-Bet, but may FOLD to play back if they've missed, or are somewhat weak.
      (I'd peel 1 street with a check/call against this sort, in hopes of seeing him bluff fire 1 more time at least, or at least call lighter because I checked. I'd probably go so far as to donk bet SMALL into this type on the turn to induce the raise I'd "want".)

      - Someone who will act aggressively with a made 2 pair sometimes and on a bluff sometimes, and is balanced enough to not be read-able.
      (If a C/R may well see either a semi bluff jam OR a straight/set/2 pair with well balanced frequency, I'd really be more prone to peel a card here with a check/call than to immediate lead or C/R. With improvement to the nuts possible, I do have "protection" versus a better current hand if my top/top is no good, but I do not necessarily want to immediately build a HUGE pot and be "forced" back on only that possibility in a larger pot than I'd want to see versus a well balanced bet pattern.)

      If the villain will only RAISE better than top/top here if I C/R, or if he will semi-bluff raise TOO often here, I'd be more inclined to go with a donk lead to induce or a C/R more often.


      You miss your flush draw to the nuts, and elect to check/call another 70% pot bet.

      Things are starting to clarify a bit now, or CAN clarify by your actions.

      I'd think this would be the point to donk lead about 1/2 pot into someone who may just be firing semi bluff bullets.
      If he thinks you are just trying a blocker bet with a flush draw (or straight draw), he COULD raise you somewhat least small enough to call to see if you DO spike the river. You'd then check/fold flush misses to big bets, and check/call smaller bets with a "crying call". Either way, you can control your total turn and river investment by taking the lead.

      Plus, firing half pot turn bet on a lead out puts you only 31c more invested, and with villain still holding $2 behind, you CAN fold to a jam somewhat cheaper than letting him set the price to see the river. If that fold is "wrong" so be it. You still hold "only" a 1 pair hand, and a draw to the nuts with only 1 more to come.

      Of course if you are still un-sure of his hand, and he has bluffed and held better than top/top with enough "balance", a check/call with intent to fold to a big river bet on a missed draw CAN be "ok". This would be so if you think that in LATER hands you might leverage his 3 bullet bet tendencies when you DO hold a stronger made hand (like a flopped set), and see those 3 bets to pressure you again.

      Overall though, I'd really like to put something out there to try seeing where I am at on this turn more often than check/call again...


      Here, I do not think the fold is bad at all facing that bet, especially when you do not elect to test your hand on the turn.

      This is a situation where you are either "right" that he holds better than top/top and you've saved yourself $1.71, or you are WRONG and you lost about the minimum that you could in trying to stack someone who may have fired that same bet on another club.

      Originally posted by hamburglarid View Post
      I don't normally play this passive...
      Per this:

      I can guess you probably don't looking at how you played that 78s hand oop.

      Other than a small bet sizing leak that left a pretty minimal amount of value on the table, there really wasn't anything "wrong" with what you did there in my opinion. You even seemed to pick the "right" sort of villain for this sort of try, based on the opponent's bet sizing choices (2 x bets less than half pot) after the flop. That makes your playability of that 78s oop was really quite well thought out.

      Thing is, I did not want to "assume" you knew all the things I put out there, even though your decisions SEEMED to indicate you did...

      In THIS hand, you are faced with a pretty tricky situation really with top/top and a draw...more value than "just" the draw, but with a coordinated board that is MORE likely than normal to have hit your opponent stronger than 1 pair.

      Based on the Villain's actions here, I am pretty sure you were not ahead a good portion of the time here, so the turn lead I suggest might have seen an extremely aware type MIN RAISING you, thus putting you in a really tricky spot that defeats your purpose in donk leading.

      So as long as you can find a way to leverage your actions here in LATER hands, you can probably re-coup any possible losses you MIGHT have had through the passive line.
      Double Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        This is very helpful. I am almost certain the river shove was for value (you see that a lot at 2nl). I still don't like the way I played it. Like you suggested I wanted to three bet and I wanted to check-raise, but my opponent had played so tight previously that I went into a shell. I think that donk bets are something I will try adding to my game in situations such as this.


        • #5
          It is a good tool to make em, and if a tight player raises hard over you, then yur solid 1 pair type hands may be no good so you can fold 'em CHEAPER than if you let him set your price.

          And as stated, if you are in severe DOUBT which way to go versus the player for some reason, with the sort of hand you had, there was decent possibilites with a call call fold line.

          You spike, you can C/R for a good bit of value

          You miss, you can fold the river somewhat cheaply

          You just REALLY want to avoid that type of play TOO often, because it is sort of a "spew" if you are doing it a lot. In that case, it is merely a "passive chase" you are making.

          HOW can I say on 1 hand it is "ok" to make the play here once, and on the other call it a "bad" passive chase? Simple...

          Even experienced and aware players will run into situations where they are "un-sure" how and what an opponent might bet. PAYING for that info, like you did here, will give you info for later hands. As long as you USE what you learned here to configure decisions in other hand, you can salvage something from this one, and make your play ok...

          Double Bracelet Winner



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