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Other opitons?

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  • Other opitons?

    Other than obviously folding and facing the blinds behind....
    Last edited by dale442; Sat Aug 06, 2011, 08:55 AM. Reason: oops3
    3 Time Bracelet Winner

  • #2
    You need to give us more info on what you want out of this.

    Are you looking for different amount to bet preflop?
    Since I cant tell you to fold which is what I would have done, I would have bet 400.
    Not that its going to change much,it all depends on your image really on how much some one respects your betting.

    Lets say you have opened AA 2.5xbb which is $400 at this lvl and you got to showdown and people saw that you are playing all your hands in that range then they might respect it.

    If you made a mistake in the last 2 orbits by calling with 3rd best pair weak kicker then most anyone with a stack is going to call you with a Ace rag type hand.

    I honestly think your shove might have made it through if Tiger didnt have aces.
    You have three good players at your table that I recognize.The others would not call out of fear,it would cripple them stack wise.

    Here is what you should be thinking before you shove.
    Am I better than the table in general?
    If so wait and fold.
    If the table is better than you than shove.
    Whenever I am outskilled I take away there edge by shoving.
    I took down a tourney once against one of the best HU PROs online,I knew from the rail that I was in trouble. So I got aggressive with him and forced him to play my game.
    I did the same thing live against a real good pro,he commented at the end that he gave me to much credit. Translation he was waiting for that good spot to suck me in because he knew he was better.

    Other thing to look at is how people at your table read bets and boards.
    Sometimes people are unable to read that a 1/2 stack bet means its going allin on the flop no matter. Same goes for bluffing a player that cant read a board.

    Hope that ramble helps a bit and gets a discussion going.


    • #3
      KQo is stronger than roughly 90% of Hold'em starting hands. If you double up now, you'll have 10bb. If you wait until the blind hits you, not only will your double-up potential go down by 20% of your total stack after doubling up, but your hand strength will drop enormously. You'll be lucky to get a hand as strong as KQo over the next three hands. In a typical MTT, I say shove. In a league game, I say evaluate your risk/reward based on the stage of the MTT and what a bustout now would mean for you.

      If you're in the points or too far to fold your way into them, this could be a shove. Probably makes more sense to fold it though if it's a league game.
      Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sat Aug 06, 2011, 09:43 AM.


      • #4
        Thanks cookies and panicky for your responses.

        My thought was with 800 chips left and facing 240 chips in the blinds coming, would I get a better hand soon enough?? We don't that answer. Even being early, I felt there wasn't another option such as calling or small raise. Small raise commits me. So, shove or fold. Folding means sitting and praying for a playable hand real soon.

        Thanks again,

        3 Time Bracelet Winner


        • #5
          Im not saying that the logic about shoving the UTG is wrong since we have all read it in almost every book. But I do make a argument for waiting till the Big blind some times.

          Lets say the SB is the chip leader at the table. EP players are folding because isolating you could be dangerous with a big stack waiting to act so they tend to fold. MP will have to have a strong hand as well to take a go at you. When it is folded to HJ almost always they will fold to a chipleader and so you are HU with a player that may have a weak hand or he may not.

          Now compare that to shoving UTG and possibly getting called 4 way when you have AA.
          The hand doesnt matter now and you are most likely treading water as a suckout is about to take your last remaining chips.

          Other reason is that every one has read to shove UTG than let it hit the blind and read you like a book when you play exactly like a book tells you.

          Theres a reason they call Blind on Blind the last frontier.

          Just food for thought and anyone calling your KQ has a ace most of the time so you are not doing that well as you think.


          • #6
            I didn't believe I was doing very well with those holdings. Just didn't believe in the other options.


            3 Time Bracelet Winner


            • #7
              DIRECT ANSWER to your question in the topic:

              "OTHER OPTIONS?"

              1) Pick a spot SOMEWHERE when you are nearer to 10BB to jam.

              Try to use late position, first in vigorish, and any info which might indicate a WIDENING to a Villain's entry range (if you cannot get 'em in first to act). If this is a PL game, I am pretty sure somewhere you could have picked up a few blinds at an uber tight table.

              2) Use more info to weigh the plusses and minuses of shoving HERE.

              Plus: Tight table, with lots of stacks that would be "stung" by doubling you.

              Plus: EP may give you more credibility to your shove.

              Plus: KQ is hardly to totally hopeless hand.

              Minus: OOP, you must get ALL to fold, as any range vs tight ladder climbers will tend to have KQ behind. More who could call, means more chances of that being there which CAN call you.

              Minus: Your 5BB stack lays 3 to 2 to the BB; combined with the BB's need for chips, and your (likely) widened shove range, This may lead to MORE BB calls by hands like rag A's, and small pp, which are AHEAD of your KQ slightly, and which might fold had you more chips (or had the BB more)

              Minus: Shoving now means you get to see NO ONE's actions until you are all in; in the BB you'd get to see if EVERYONE's action before you must decide to "stand or fold".

              3) Recognize that versus uber tight ranges you are NOT likely getting called by worse. Recognize also that picking up the blinds and antes is perfectly "ok" with you on your stack size though.


              To be honest, there are arguements both for, and against your decision to shove here. There are also consequences to each of those decisions when made at a very tight table. So whichever you decide on i future situations similar to this, you are going to have to ACCEPT those consecquences...AA is one of the "consequences".

              COULD you have folded?


              While your stack is quite depleted by paying the blinds, with the stack sizes at the table doubling you on even 240 fewer chips still represents a significant chip loss to quite a few players here. Since many in the PL are still playing the "ladder climber" game, there really is not much loss in your Fold Equity by folding off 240 more. Consider...

              Your FE is largely determined by the threat your stack exerts upon other stacks, by the shove range perceptions your opponents have about you, AND by the chip up "needs" of your opponents.

              - An 800 chip jam vs a 560 chip jam means you are still jamming over 1/3rd the cips of any stack at the table, except the top 2, and those are still forced to call off just under 20% to sheriff you.

              - Since folding NOW means you WILL be jamming very soon anyway (sometime in the next orbit surely), so whatever image you have now will be pretty much the same if you wait to shove (unless they might perceive you as even MORE desperate).

              - Jamming now, you are facing all but 2 opponents acting behind who are at (or very near) 10BB. Any (or all) may feel pressure to call light.

              Could you make a case for jamming?


              - Tight table means you may well not see anyone with a hand that feel comfortable calling.

              - Tight table means hands ahead of you, like small pp or marginal Aces (A8/A9, maybe even AT/AJ if tight enough), might fold.

              - Even if called by a pp, your are at least RACING everything up to JJ.

              but the bottom line of everything is:

              If you can feel good aobut the Fold Equity chances you have here, and now, then your table is probably tight enough that you COULD have avoided being down to 5BB by moving some chips earlier...
              Double Bracelet Winner



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