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25NL: KTs in BB, Flop Top Pair, Confusing Bet By Rock on BU

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  • 25NL: KTs in BB, Flop Top Pair, Confusing Bet By Rock on BU

    Here's a fun spot I was in today. The minraise LAG had been getting in a lot of pots, as you can see from his (VPIP/PFR/3Bet/AF) stats. The rock had a Call Open % of about 3, which immediately registered when I saw him enter the pot. I called in the BB because KTs just plays so well and I hate to fold.

    I checked the flop because I didn't think I could bet for value vs. either player. The LAG would probably just fold his unmade hands to a bet, since he can't be all that strong given how many pots he's in. The rock will also just call or raise better and fold worse. I checked to the raiser who decided to give up the lead, and then the rock decided to pick it up.

    I don't have enough hands on the rock to know if he likes to steal in spots like these, but I had top pair, so I figured he might just shut down on the turn if he was trying to rob me. I did not really know where my money was going when I called, and I think that it might have been a bad call, EV-wise. The rock followed through with another bet on the turn, and I ended up making my play with a decent degree of confusion. Thoughts on how I played this hand and what I should have done on the turn?

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    MP ($9.90)
    Minraise LAG (39/27/0/3.0) (CO) ($38.95)
    Rock (13/10/0/inf) (Button) ($10)
    SB ($13.16)
    Panicky (BB) ($30.10)
    UTG ($45.63)

    Preflop: Panicky is BB with K, 10
    2 folds, Minraise LAG (39/27/0) bets $0.50, Rock (13/10/0) calls $0.50, 1 fold, Panicky calls $0.25

    Flop: ($1.60) K, 3, 6 (3 players)
    Panicky checks, Minraise LAG (39/27/0) checks, Rock (13/10/0) bets $1, Panicky calls $1, 1 fold

    Turn: ($3.60) A (2 players)
    Panicky checks, Rock (13/10/0) bets $2, ???

  • #2
    only thought I have is the rock was setmining... I always get crushed with hands like that

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    • #3
      Originally posted by roomik17 View Post
      only thought I have is the rock was setmining... I always get crushed with hands like that
      Ahhh ... I didn't even think of that - yeah, they get me every time! D'oh!

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      • #4
        I can say that by the time I decided my turn action, I hadn't even considered a set. I know that I should have, but what probably threw me off of that idea was the bet sizing. People usually pound the pot when they make a set.

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        • #5
          Roomik got it right? Usually I'd just post this little guy ---> umbup: But I made a special visit to 'google images' as an ode to Roomik, since his pics always crack me up I don't know what tells there might be - there seem to be all types on the tables - I've started to try color coding people who slow-play, bluff ... anything that's different from how things might appear. But half the time a set's not even on my radar, so that doesn't really help with that Hopefully it'll come over time ...
          Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Jul 20, 2011, 06:26 AM.

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          • #6
            The villain did not turn over a set.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by PanickyPoker View Post
              The villain did not turn over a set.
              Oh - I thought you were saying that you missed the set in your last comment when you said you didn't even think of that, as if you failed to consider it and then rule it out

              I don't think we're always supposed to know what people have, especially if they mask hands. Based on the info we have, if that's all you have, were you trying to tell us you ruled out AK because they didn't 3bet? So if it's not a set - either you're not giving us info like the fact that they play suited connectors in position like JQ, JT, 45, or else they bluffed on the flop and caught up on the turn, or had a K and ruled out that you had an A, or held a pocket pair. A VPIP of 13, I'm ruling out 2pr. Unless they slowplayed AA. If none of the above, then it's just a bluff - that happens too ...
              Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Jul 20, 2011, 07:02 AM.

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              • #8
                I'm intentionally being vague because I don't want the results to bias anyone's evaluation of the hand. But yes, AK was not a hand I was considering.

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                • #9
                  sounds like they're trying to rep AK with a lower pair, that probably didn't hit a set. At least, that's my cent and a half.. LOL
                  Super-Moderator



                  6 Time Bracelet Winner


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                  • #10
                    To share the secret outcome of this hand, I folded the turn. I'm still baffled though. A set makes some sense and can't be excluded from their range, but this just felt like KJ or KQ to me. I think I have to take AK out of their range, because this was a regular, supertight/aggressive player. You can't make money playing 12% of hands and only flatting the top of your range imo. This hand frustrates me.

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                    • #11
                      I guess the fact that you view him as a rock suggests that he might not be capable of bluffing or semibluffing at all. If you think so the turn should be an easy fold. If he were a more sophisticated player who might barrel scarecards with draws or complete air calling might be reasonable.
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                      • #12
                        Very well played imo (you folded the turn right?). I put villain on 99+, AJs+, AQo+ and KQs, which suggests us to fold the turn. He'll be betting the flop with 99-QQ but not the turn, most likely he's holding AJ-AQ here.

                        I like the check-call on the flop, basically b/c donking there shows weakness, with that line you're inducing people to float you and make you fold on later streets.

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                        • #13
                          Yep. Check/folded the turn. I think what frustrated me was that I don't like calling one street and folding another when my hand doesn't really weaken. The thing I did like was that I did manage to get some more info on this guy. That's always good to have against a reg.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PanickyPoker View Post
                            People usually pound the pot when they make a set.
                            You could ask the same thing about a pair of K's (with better kicker) though - KQ, wouldn't they want to try and push potential draws or Arags out of the pot? That pounding the pot thing, maybe that's more of a beginners level thing that people do because so many of us won't realize that we're up against a set unless they really advertise the strength of their hand. And also, we try too hard to pressure people out of pots in which they're not likely to fold, like KhQh. Technically, wasn't the villain pricing out all the other hands except for like (if we assume that nobody's holding AA, KK or AK)? eg. vs Pot Equity: 75%/25% Price to Call: $1 to win $3.60 back is 28% eg2. vs (3 to a straight) Pot Equity: 74%/27%

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                            • #15
                              I think it's because people who make top pair with a good kicker know that teir hand is basically a bluff-catcher/fish-net. They're usually only getting to play big pots with those hands and win if the villain is not very good, so winning small pots is fine. On the other hand, when you flop a set and a lock on the hand, why be cautious? Furthermore, when you flop a set, you need to get paid off for all of the times that you don't flop a set, and if you get 2/3x the pot in on for two streets of value heads-up, after rake, you're only going to make roughly seven times what you put in preflop when you're supposed to make upwards of fifteen if your opponent has a hand as well. People play sets more aggressively otherwise they won't get paid off.

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