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Skill League tourney, facing a shove.

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  • Skill League tourney, facing a shove.

    Here's an interesting one from a different thread that I thought could use discussion. Im not sure what the point gain/loss would be at this level without playing, but I imagine it's a loss of a few, depending on the hero's score in the league. Thoughts on all aspects...pre and post flop of play? Here's the original thread. http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...e-the-Russians

  • #2
    pre flop facing the 3 bet simple just shove over top.. post flop horrible.. I would never fold kings there.. what type of range does the villain have that includes a 6?

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    • #3
      If the hero is calling pre, I think it should be with the knowledge that someone is likely to call behind or raise, but multiple callers is unlikely. The actual outcome where nobody overcalled or raised is also fine. The point would be to severely disguise the strength of the hero's hand and strongly encourage a double-up on the flop. However, that requires the commitment to shove any flop, with the possible exception of three-flush three-straight, or ace-high flops, if loss of points is a serious concern. In a regular MTT, I would likely shove any flop.

      I think the flop fold is horrible, because that is almost the single best flop KK could hope for (flopping any kind of boat would be the only superior flop, I believe). Not only is the villain having split trips significantly less likely than them having a split pair since there are only two cards they could have instead of three, I really can't see that specific card in the villain's range very often at all. This was an obvious call on the flop.
      Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sat Jul 16, 2011, 04:26 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by roomik17 View Post
        pre flop facing the 3 bet simple just shove over top.. post flop horrible.. I would never fold kings there.. what type of range does the villain have that includes a 6?
        It's not a 3bet, a 3x raise.

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        • #5
          I should add that villains should probably be betting any pocket pair or suited overcards for value here, and there are more combos of those than sixes and aces.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by !!!111Dan View Post
            It's not a 3bet, a 3x raise.
            tomatoe tamahhtoe lol either way I am shipping it lol

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            • #7
              Originally posted by roomik17 View Post
              tomatoe tamahhtoe lol either way I am shipping it lol
              'tomatoe' sounds like a really weird native tribe, and 'tamahhtoe' just sounds like you're opeming your mouth really wide.

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              • #8
                well I have been accused of having a big mouth

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                • #9
                  i thought this guy was crazy when i first saw this hand. snap call imo. at 200/400 blinds i think it's definitely positive points territory, the villain is probably on a flush draw chase or over pair to the board, 10 10, JJ which you are still crushing and if infact you were behind after calling you still have outs i'm sure.

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                  • #10
                    Lately a concept I've been thinking about is 'tournament survival' and 'risk minimization'. Because personally I make these calls 100% of the time (based on the math of the individual hand). And time and again, I see people getting better results by avoiding these clashes of the monster hands, with their monster pots. I've lost so much money by getting my chips into the middle when I knew I was far ahead - only to be busted by long-shots. Some examples: (the tiny post-flop raise was me trying to dangle a 'carrot' ... boy, I really trapped them, eh? ) (based on their betting patterns, I knew for sure they didn't have a heart, otherwise I wouldn't have shoved) Like, putting the cards aside for a minute, with a call and fold, that'd still leave a stack of 8000 chips - guaranteed tournament survival, with a healthy stack. Like I guess the big stack can afford to go all-in, whereas for KK it's do or die (even if losing is likely a statistical long-shot)? Anybody think that's a valid consideration? Not just in PSO, but in other tourneys - is that how others are playing games? That second hand, that AQ ended up winning $14 because of that hand
                    Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Jul 16, 2011, 05:58 AM.

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                    • #11
                      I don't like the call preflop. I'm raising him back (at least 3-5BB, if not shoving).

                      The only way you can fold on the flop is if you put them on AA, 99 or 66. Don't know the way they were playing hands before it... but most likely, I'd be calling.
                      Super-Moderator



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                      • #12
                        One hour in, this is still negative points territory though - for some people it's as high as -20 points.

                        Yeah, I thought something like JJ or QQ might be possible - no 3bet, and set over set is rare, so maybe with a hand like that they'd think it might be good with the board as it is, but not if he let others with hands like AQ (in the case of JJ), or AK draw out?

                        I like 3betting to gauge a person's reaction - but then again, I've been playing hand by hand, and not with tournament survival in mind, so ....
                        Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Jul 16, 2011, 06:16 AM.

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                        • #13
                          lol @ flop leatherass bet on hand #1. Funny how effective that was. I'd say that was an awkward preflop 3bet though, since it's too small to commit yourself on the flop, which is what you want I think, since you're going to have a lot of bad flops. It also will potentially get you isolated against only overpairs and AK against tight opponents, so I think I prefer a call there.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PanickyPoker View Post
                            lol @ flop leatherass bet on hand #1. Funny how effective that was. I'd say that was an awkward preflop 3bet though, since it's too small to commit yourself on the flop, which is what you want I think, since you're going to have a lot of bad flops. It also will potentially get you isolated against only overpairs and AK against tight opponents, so I think I prefer a call there.
                            Did it look like I might have had something like KK When I 3bet? Ideally I was hoping they'd fold, because ya I didn't want to get in too deep. That was the 'plan' anyways May try a call next time ... see how that goes umbup:

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                              Lately a concept I've been thinking about is 'tournament survival' and 'risk minimization'. Because personally I make these calls 100% of the time (based on the math of the individual hand). And time and again, I see people getting better results by avoiding these clashes of the monster hands, with their monster pots. I've lost so much money by getting my chips into the middle when I knew I was far ahead - only to be busted by long-shots. Some examples: (the tiny post-flop raise was me trying to dangle a 'carrot' ... boy, I really trapped them, eh? ) (based on their betting patterns, I knew for sure they didn't have a heart, otherwise I wouldn't have shoved) Like, putting the cards aside for a minute, with a call and fold, that'd still leave a stack of 8000 chips - guaranteed tournament survival, with a healthy stack. Like I guess the big stack can afford to go all-in, whereas for KK it's do or die (even if losing is likely a statistical long-shot)? Anybody think that's a valid consideration? Not just in PSO, but in other tourneys - is that how others are playing games? That second hand, that AQ ended up winning $14 because of that hand
                              I basically made a pretty long post on that thread about that hand lol.. Trustysam: man, if you get a bad beat, just think if you made the correct play, if they're bad beating you it means you're getting it in with the best, which is pretty good. I've seen both hands and I just want to point out a couple of things to try and help: 1st hand: you don't need to build a big pot here by 3betting, specially that small reraise and thus low FE. I think flatting is a superior play, followed by reshoving. Shoving is prob too heavy with our stack, we would need some info like villains's raise/folding range, which we obviously don't have. 2nd: very well played imo. That flop hits lots of his range (unless he's a huge donk and calling with rags pre?) so very nice check/shove.
                              Last edited by Hen-Golden; Sat Jul 16, 2011, 06:33 AM.

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