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few questions on this............

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  • few questions on this............

    i think my shove here was the right play given that only 9 places paid, it's a super turbo and blinds are about to go up in the next minute or so. my questions are more from the points of view of the other players. is it right that they are calling my all in with K J os and K 7 suited? i had already survived 1 recent all in with AJ suited against Q 3os when we both flopped our top Pairs. on the flop i was praying for a jack as i didn't expect to be ahead at that point. i guess what it is i want to know is how much should your range open up in turbo games, should you still wait for big cards or should you be willing to gamble with any 2 cards? i have been amazed at hands that call all ins PFR etc, i think the players going along the lines of any 2 cards stand a chance etc, mind you this has also spilled over into PSO aswell, is it just that time of the month where people have just been paid/reloaded and are more willing to gamble?

  • #2
    I think your shove is fine.

    The big blind's call here seems fairly incorrect to me. It's not the worst play in the world, but I don't think you should be shoving so loose that they're ahead of your range, which is what they should be thinking about when they decide to call (or raise) or fold.

    Given that you shoved and there was a caller, the button's overcall is pretty horrible. Without antes, K7s might be a fold. With antes, It's closer to an open shove, but I think that with two players to act on seven and eight effective big blinds, it might still be a fold. But even if he should be shoving K7s, limp/calling is pretty leaky.

    In hyper-turbos, you need to be good at short-stacked play. You can't really make the assumption that you should be 'opening up' or 'willing to gamble' and expect that to be good enough. Understanding correct shoving ranges and correct calling ranges is essential, and that involves heavy study of poker math. If you want to get really good at these, practice on the 9-man hyper-turbos, and do a lot of Sit'n'Go Wizarding. You'll learn what hands are good to shove, on what stacks, with how many players behind, etc.
    Last edited by PanickyPoker; Tue May 31, 2011, 11:35 PM.


    • #3
      with 5BB left, you basically need to shove any hand you're willing to play. With that, if you feel KQ is the way to go, get the chips in preflop.

      Your opponents.... KJo, is the extreme short stack, so if they play, has to be a shove and they have two paint with only about 2BB left, so them calling is ok.
      The K7s player is getting into a 3-way pot. They have plenty of chips to gamble with and against random hands (either of you could be pushing with almost anything since you're shortstacked) and they are actually the favorite to win the hand against random. Yes, they're going to lose slightly more than they'll win, but if they win, they take 2 people out and have plenty of chips to gamble with.

      The turbos are the same mindset... but you'll hit the point where you need to auto-push any hand you play more frequently, as your chip stack will have a lower number of BB's in it sooner.

      6 Time Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        5BB in the SB, and you shove over a single button (LP) limper holding KQo.
        You have a BB left to act behind you on a similarl short stack (about 7.5BB or so)

        Your shove is really pretty standard, and absolutely nothing wrong with it. You MUST chip up, and KQo is certaily going to play well versus the limp range of most LP players. You'd need an EXTREME "read" to negate these facts. I'm not going to bother putting up a range read for you versus the limper, simply because you must factor in fold equity thoughts, stack discipline, and other factors which weigh on player reads you have not provided. Suffice it to say, I think your KQo is perfectly acceptable here.

        As for the BB with KJo, he MUST know you are short enough to be shoving a pretty wide range here, especially since the button limped another BB into the pot, thus fattening it. If the BB recognizes that YOU know he is short enough BEHIND YOU to justify a pretty light CALL, then he cannot put you on a truly RANDOM range, but your fold equity potential, plus your "need" to chip up is still gunna have you wide here; the fact you showed down AJs in an all-in earlier is immaterial really.

        Let's say he puts you on about a 40% range to shove over the limper. That would be:
        Any Ace, Any pp, Any 2 broadway, Any suited connector down to 45s, any o/s connector down to 76o, Any K to K7x, Any Q to Q8x, Any J to J9x = 40.3%

        Versus this "reasonable" shove range by you, KJo has 50.731% equity. Obviously, the BB is so short that taking ANY potential plus equity stand by him is perfectly reasonable, epecially in a turbo event. I'd say his call may be somewhat "risky" if you had been showing some solid shove discipline, but it is far from "out of line".

        K7o though, sssssssssssssssss. I hate that call. Sure, that guy has you both covered by about 34k (17BB), but after limping in, then seeing 2 all-in's, he can REALLY get away from this cheaply. Had he RAISED to steal, thus "narrowed" the shove ranges of both you and the BB, he probably sticks himself to the pot for your stacks, but he limped then called 2 shoves...yuck.

        While you are on a pretty WIDE range, and the BB may well call wide, the BB is probably NOT
        calling AS WIDE as you'd shove simply because he knows it MUST go to showdown.

        Were it just "you", and if the limper puts you on that 40% range, then he is getting only about 42% equity.

        When you consider the BB is probably calling you a BIT lighter than "optimal" (optimal would be if he reads you as a 40% range, he is calling on a 20% range), he still MUST tighten his call standards over that 40% sine it IS going to showdown. If we say he is calling you at a 25% range, then these are the hands he is calling on:

        Any A, Any pp, Any K to KT, Any Q to QJ = 25.2% range.

        When you apply THAT to the mix, the K7o is getting a bit over 2 to 1 to call, is closing the betting, so he "needs" about 33% equity to call along. He only has about 26.225%, and the range of the initial shover has only about 27.897%. When you factor in his "Q" (relative stack size in relation to the average stack at the table) into his overall tourney quity considerations, he really needs more like 37% to 40% equity to make it worth the "risk" of chipping up 1 or more players, unless you are directly on the bubble.

        So that K7o call was WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too reckless.

        I know my personal preference when I am in spots like this one (vs 2 blinds who are short stacked, but who can still take a good % of MY stack), I am NOT "pressureing" them a whole lot. I am generally raising only hands I am willing to call at least 1 all-in unless they are both uber-nit ladder climbers. If they are uber-nit ladder climbers, I am much more apt to put them all-in up fornt, as Panicky notes.

        ...but he did spike lucky, whatcha gunna do?
        Last edited by JDean; Wed Jun 01, 2011, 02:54 AM.
        Double Bracelet Winner


        • #5
          thanks all, least you all agree my KQ shove was the right play i thought it was and wasn't too concerned with that, i just asked so that if i find myself in a similar situation to the chipleader of this hand and whether or not that was the right play.

          i'm not really a fan of the turbo games and even less so of the super turbo, the only reason i am playing them is they are a satellite for the UKIPT at newcastle which is around 45 minutes away from me, so would be nice to be able to play in it without spending £550 (buy in plus registration)

          the satellites are also free entry so again play is looser than normal (i think) alot of the attidtude is that it is a free game with a good prize at the end so it is worth gambling on any 2 cards, the only issue is there is only one of these games a day and i only have this week to try and get a ticket, this hand that i posted took me out at the furthest i had been which was down to 32nd with only 9 places gaining entry to next round.

          if any one can offer any help, hints or tips on how to play these i would be grateful as i am more set in my ways of standard poker playing, i would really like to gain a ticket and get to the main event for as little cost as possible.

          thanks again.


          • #6
            You're absolutely right that the play in these will be alot looser. With that being the case, the first few min of it, you need to sit back and only play premium hands, then with it being a turbo, you will need to open up your range more than normal (since you'll have lower BB in your stack sooner).

            If you want a cheaper turbo that will play the same type of style, check the 10 cent turbo mtt's (there are 3 of them a day). The play style should be similar (or at least it's been that way in the number of them I have played in before). Playing a couple of those as practice may help.

            6 Time Bracelet Winner



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