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Would you fold this?

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  • Would you fold this?

    This was in PSO, where I lost sight of my stack and kind of got immersed in the hand, so it wound up being an all-in by the river. I felt like there was a good chance I was beat, but there was also a chance I could be ahead. The notes I had on the villain were that he plays hands like 76s from middle position, 86o in the big blind when raised, 66, 78o on the button, 6Ts in the cutoff, AQo, and that he bluffs a lot, overrepresents his hands - his VPIP was 33%. My gut said he had the K, but then I read my notes and felt like he could have a lesser flush since I balked. Should I have put stack preservation at the top of the list if in doubt? I had all these concepts we've been talking about swimming in my head - I feel like maybe I lost sight of the most important thing of all (tournament life)? I've been playing a lot of other games lately that are a lot more aggressive, so maybe my reads are off ...
    Last edited by TrustySam; Fri May 20, 2011, 04:31 AM.

  • #2
    Think if he doesnt have you beat on the flop he for sure has you on the turn.
    Its rare that people will fire a bullet on a 4 card flush board with out having the Ace or the king usually.

    The other thing you have to think about is if he is some what decent.
    Bad players will tend to overbet a flush when they hit or minbet when they have it.
    Good players will bet weak to string you on.
    More experienced players will play it both ways to balance the range.

    So when you bet 83% of the pot it can be seen as many things still.
    If you bet this way before and had air,then I would not take this line.
    You are more likely to get played at or called down.
    If you bet this way with the nuts than this is a good line because it is going to look strong.

    I stab at this pot and give up to any push back from villian since a 9 is just not going to cut it with out really good reads.

    Comment


    • #3
      if it was me, especially in a PSO, that's a muck preflop.

      You basically have to know that if not on the flop, then the turn for sure, they've got a higher flush.

      Either way, since it's a PSO, you need to preserve your chips as much as possible... so that you can use them to get ITM and get the extra league points. You do not want to be taking a chance when you don't know that you have the best hand.
      Super-Moderator



      6 Time Bracelet Winner


      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JWK24 View Post
        if it was me, especially in a PSO, that's a muck preflop. You basically have to know that if not on the flop, then the turn for sure, they've got a higher flush. Either way, since it's a PSO, you need to preserve your chips as much as possible... so that you can use them to get ITM and get the extra league points. You do not want to be taking a chance when you don't know that you have the best hand.
        That's great advice JWK, especially the last one. I'll try it out tomorrow since I'm already out of the 10pm game too - yikes! I've got a good feeling it should help a lot. Thanks so much for the help!!! umbup:

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Deleted user View Post
          Think if he doesnt have you beat on the flop he for sure has you on the turn. Its rare that people will fire a bullet on a 4 card flush board with out having the Ace or the king usually. The other thing you have to think about is if he is some what decent. Bad players will tend to overbet a flush when they hit or minbet when they have it. Good players will bet weak to string you on. More experienced players will play it both ways to balance the range. So when you bet 83% of the pot it can be seen as many things still. If you bet this way before and had air,then I would not take this line. You are more likely to get played at or called down. If you bet this way with the nuts than this is a good line because it is going to look strong. I stab at this pot and give up to any push back from villian since a 9 is just not going to cut it with out really good reads.
          Yeah - the flush made from the 4 board cards is a lot weaker than the flush made from 3 board cards, isn't it? I think I read that in a book somewhere ... Also, my reads were from another day - today he wasn't that bluffy. My reads could have been from later on in the game of that other tourney when he had a much larger stack or something like that. Probably it was just wishful thinking (and by wishful thinking I mean desperation) to think that he just had like a 6 I guess the pushback was a pretty big sign that it was time to fold. Thx cookie!!! umbup: PS I was wondering if you had fallen into a big jar of cookies - haven't seen you around
          Last edited by TrustySam; Fri May 20, 2011, 05:58 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Sam,

            It is a definite fold preflop with this hand on the SB in PSO and this early.

            In a normal tourney I would like the bet even out of position but when the big blind calls, my spider sense starts tingling.

            The worse thing about A rag though is hitting such a wet flop, off course you get your pair Aces but your get kicker is weak, so if the flush comes you are likely doomed. And as Cookie says, a decent player will slow play this with a weak bet on the turn to reel you in.

            You must have known he had the K at the river, and those are the times to trust your gut, no matter what notes you have, although I know it is hard to lay this down when you have so much invested in the hand.

            TC

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi top! Yeah, it was that feeling of pot-commitment (and by pot-commitment I mean feeling of desperation) that made me call on the river I think I DID know ... bah, not sure why I called. And yeah, PSO tourneys can be different from other tourneys the way the point system is set up - that definitely seems to be the winning formula to play tight, patient, wait for the best hand, watch the stack, and be willing to fold, fold, fold I've been playing these other tourneys lately where the play is so different - here's some hands I played in the Inside SCOOP Daily Freeroll the other day: I felt bad for this player because I think they ruled out JJ to KK since I didn't shove pre-flop, which most people would - but I wanted somebody to call so I could take my chances rather than just wind up with blinds and antes. Anyways, just thought it was kind of noteworthy in that neither of us had the A. This hand was later in the game where the stack differential was huge and there were 3 players with VPIP's over 40. The 'villain' here had a VPIP of 76 and an aggression factor of 8. I guess one style of play would be to wait for a premium hand and shove, but there is also that other style where people will play less than premium hands and then make bets to see what they stand (or what they can get away with)? Can you believe somebody would play 54o??? I guess he can though because he can win with it - I feel like I totally got out played. Anyways, thought those hands were kind of fun in that they're so different from PSO. But I still love PSO League - gonna try playing tight today! Thx for the help everybody!!! umbup:

              Comment


              • #8
                Well play tight trusty but not too tight. For example, your J,10 suited is worth a roll on the button in PSO. And there are just as many who would play 4,5 in the cutoff even in PSO.

                I assume that you are using a HUD, don't over rely on the info and use your own reading of the play at the table as well. Many people vary their style based on the dynamic of the table.

                And never feel sorry about taking chips off anyone else. You are in the tourney to win.

                Oh and i did not know about the SCOOP freerolls. Thanks for the heads up.

                TC

                Just realised that I have to watch those two nutcases on the SCOOP show to get the password; the things I will do for money or the opportunity to win some


                TC
                Last edited by topthecat; Fri May 20, 2011, 05:14 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by topthecat View Post

                  And never feel sorry about taking chips off anyone else. You are in the tourney to win.

                  TC
                  This is a big problem for me

                  Ever since Black Friday, the pool of people is so much smaller and you see the same people again and again, and everybody's so nice. It gets hard because I don't want to be the person to hurt anybody else's chances - and I could swear others sometimes scale it back too against me for the same reason. If somebody played against me like they were playing to win, that'd be totally cool and I'd play back. But mostly I just stick to my cards. I guess I'll just have to play more (and play tight) to rack up little points (and not get negative points) hopefully!

                  PS If you don't have the time to watch the whole show, there's places on the internet that give out the password if you do a Google search

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, so here's the latest - played 2 hands early on that technically don't fall into the tight zone but are part of my regular range, and won (67s, KQo, late position) but scaled back my raises significantly to be on the cautious side, so that compromised my chip intake. Then didn't get anything remotely playable until the 55 hit when I was already under the 10BB threshold. This is a little awkward because there's that school of thought in Hand Analysis that says to shove with hands like these at this point. But is this the general practice of what's considered a winning formula for PSO, how I played the hand below? There was somebody at my table from Turkey who signed up for a game yesterday, and because of the time zone difference he fell asleep and got auto-folded. And managed to win 4 points! I'm thinking maybe that's my best option at this point - getting kind of desperate LOL!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Patience Trusty Sam,

                      Had you been watching how wardy played? His stack was as low as yours and he had flat called. I would nearly bet my house that he had not played too many hands before that and that he was TAG so your fives were a call at best and with a 1 in seven chance of hitting a fold was probably best.

                      The under 10 big blinds rule does not apply on PSO; you are playing to score points and then the target is of getting in the money. If necessary I will fold every hand for the first hour and a half. Total nit play I know but you want to accumulate points not win the tournament.

                      I am going to ask darkman to set up the Dark Arts club again and suggest you as a student for his training on the PSO, as well as me off course

                      TC

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by topthecat View Post
                        Patience Trusty Sam, Had you been watching how wardy played? His stack was as low as yours and he had flat called. I would nearly bet my house that he had not played too many hands before that and that he was TAG so your fives were a call at best and with a 1 in seven chance of hitting a fold was probably best. The under 10 big blinds rule does not apply on PSO; you are playing to score points and then the target is of getting in the money. If necessary I will fold every hand for the first hour and a half. Total nit play I know but you want to accumulate points not win the tournament. I am going to ask darkman to set up the Dark Arts club again and suggest you as a student for his training on the PSO, as well as me off course TC
                        Okay, I was hoping somebody would be willing to say that - Dave and Oriholic keep saying that's "yuck!" and "terrible play". Then I get it from other end that I'm "impatient" I guess I'll leave that to between you and Langolier and Oriholic to debate ... personally I'd be inclined to just blind out rather than play that 55 if that was all I was going to get which is what you'd do that Dave probably never would. On the other hand I just flopped 2pr with a A68 flop and jammed it and wound up losing to a better 2pr, which sounds like that's a risk you'd never take, that Dave might have (or might not have). I guess ultimately it's up to me to just absorb everything that all the experts advise and just figure out what works best for me based on what level of risk I'm willing to tolerate and what sorts of games appeal to me, just like everybody else. It's sure interesting though to note the different approaches - people can be very different in that way umbup:
                        Last edited by TrustySam; Fri May 20, 2011, 10:27 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well PSO is a different animal and the advise from JWK best fits the bill.

                          Different game plane for different game types.

                          Offer still stands if you want to improve your PSO scores.

                          TC

                          And I am no expert compared to Dave and oriholic

                          TC

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by topthecat View Post
                            Well PSO is a different animal and the advise from JWK best fits the bill. Different game plane for different game types. Offer still stands if you want to improve your PSO scores. TC And I am no expert compared to Dave and oriholic TC
                            I think the rationale behind the shove is that 55 against AQo is actually a 54% to 45% favorite to win going into the flop - 55 doesn't need to improve, or hit the 5 to win the hand. By the flop I the odds had improved to 60% to 40%, even with the addition of the straight draw which gave them extra outs. By the turn the odds of winning with 55 against AQo were 78% to 25%. I guess the larger idea being that if you're a statistical favorite to win, assuming they even call, why wouldn't you take that chance to double up while you still have a decent-sized stack? I guess the rationale against shoving with 55 for me would be that in sacrificing some stack size for a better hand, there's a greater chance of getting called by a lesser hand from a bigger stack. KK against AQo takes outs away from the villain, and acts as a blocker to them possibly making a straight. I've seen it work really effectively for other people, and it has the added benefit of not risking them incurring negative points by taking that chance sooner rather than later - something that only exists in PSO. I mean like sometimes I think there's no 'right' way because if you watch people play, there's a ton of different styles out there. Anyways, thanks so much for the offer top ... very thoughtful of you to think of me. And thanks so much to darkman for offering - that'd be supercool to get pointers from darkman (go darkman!! umbup. I'm just not sure if I'm ready yet though to learn because I've got all this theory swimming in my head that I feel like I really need to practice before I can understand it. I've only been playing less than a year ... have you been playing longer than that? You play really well
                            Last edited by TrustySam; Fri May 20, 2011, 11:40 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks Trusty,

                              I have not asked darkmn yet but he is a very amenable bloke.

                              Well I played poker in Ireland since about the age of ten, and games such as pitch and toss, so there was a fair bit of gambling even at an early age.

                              I never played for money on line until the end of this year and thought I had found a money making machine after my first deposit and some big wins. I found this site luckily before I had cleared out my bank account when it started to go the other way.LOL.

                              Now I am building a bank from virtually zero and trying like yourself to put the huge amount of knowledge here to good use.

                              There is a lot of information. So I am pretty useless at MTTs and more than one table SnGs, I just get impatient. I get a reasonable return on low level ring games and I do ok in PSO thanks to the discipline taught by Darkman.

                              Altho saying that I just got moved table and found myself really short stacked versus everyone else with AK suited. I had to shove and off course got beat but that's poker.

                              Just try and find your niche or adapt your play to the different game types. You will improve because you have the knowledge, it is just knowing the situations to employ it to your advantage.

                              Join effsea's Homegame, a good training ground if ever there was one. I am playing in the game at 9.05 EST there, (3.05am for me). Maybe i will see you there. Just pm effsea for details.

                              Good luck on the felt,

                              TC

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