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Razz: Short Stacked, Check-Raise on 5th Street w/ Ten-Low

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  • Razz: Short Stacked, Check-Raise on 5th Street w/ Ten-Low

    EDIT: Title should read, Queen-Low rather than Ten-Low (my play is looking better already, lol). Started hand w/ eight big bets. No relevant reads on the villains involved. I thought entering this hand was a little questionable, but I thought I had an easy call on fourth street. On fifth, I saw that I had the best hand, but was getting a bit of an aggro vibe from my left, so I checked it with the intent to check-raise. Probably could have led out there, but it worked out well given that there actually was a whole lot of aggro. The guy with a visibly paired hand reraised my c/r, and when folded back to me I capped for value. On sixth street, the villain (apparently) drew a pretty good card and I didn't improve, but I felt like I couldn't stand to fold with half my stack in the pot or just call sixth and call the river, so I jammed the pot again. Unfortunately, the villain drew out on me (holding two pair on sixth street...?), but I'm curious what you guys think about my line. Good, bad, or ugly?
    Last edited by PanickyPoker; Thu May 19, 2011, 09:28 AM.

  • #2
    Sorry Panicky, but at no point should you still be in the hand. If you had some up cards with some scare value or some hole cards with good blocking potential, maybe. This is a fold from the beginning. When the two comes, you have at best 3 low cards. When the 10 comes your best possible current hand is a QT32A...which is terrible. When the second 10 hits on 6th street, you can never possibly have better than a T432A if a perfect card comes on 7th street. I don't really do a lot of big bluffs in Razz, but when I do attempt a bluff, I at least want some scary looking up cards. Q247 looks a whole lot more believable than Q2TT.

    That he couldn't fold a hand as damaged as two pair on 6th street shows how unlikely your bluff was to work....Scary thing is you were somehow ahead!..Although the list of cards that would beat you on 7th street...A, 2, 4, 7, 9, T, J, Q...yeah, that's a ton. Anything but a 3, 5, 6, 8 or K...hardly a suckout.
    Last edited by oriholic; Thu May 19, 2011, 11:27 AM.
    4 Time Bracelet Winner


    • #3

      Just watching this hand kinda reveals you are not very familiar with Razz, are you?

      First comment:

      "M" doesnt work the same way in limit events, as it does in no limit events. 800+ in a limit game with the small bet at 50 is NOT really a "short stack" in the same way it is in a no limit game. in a heads up situation, you (or an opponent) really needs to have only about 400 to be able to see the river in a heads up situation. This gives you 2 full hands you can play to the river, and you are not really "short" in limit until you have maybe a big bet or 2 above that amount. This means...

      The ability for an opponent to check/call you, thus limiting the amount he must put into the pot to see what you hold, severely weakens your ability to apply bluff pressure on a pot. Your play in this hand can ONLY be "justified" by saying you are attempting to leverage bluff value.

      If you can play hands passively to the river TWICE on your stack, why are you trying "weak" bluff shots when you could wait for better spots?

      Second comment:

      Razz start hands are about "smoothness". You elect to enter this pot with a door Q and an 85 under. Even if you think ALL the players in this pot are on 2 legged hands (2 "good cards", and one brick), YOU elect to start off drawing to a pretty "bad" 85. What if you make your 8, is it a "good" 8?

      With the J calling in from the bring in, you MUST credit him with 2 good cards under that are probably better than your 85.

      Being that the 6 is the only low card in the door, that raise should be somewhat expected by you as well.

      When the K and the J call the raise, you MUST question your continued investment with a pretty ragged 85 draw.

      I don't think you should have continued to see 4th street here...

      Third comment:

      You must be aware that Razz is a DRAWING GAME, and that the quality of your draw is only present relative to the appearent quality of an opponent's draw...

      The "decision streets" in Stud variants tend to be 3rd street (the opening bet), and 5th street.
      If you decide to continue past your door card, you are almost certain to see at least your 5th street card.
      If you continue on your 5th street card, you are almost always going to pay the river.

      With that said, since you DID see 4th street here, and since you did "improve" to an 852, I have no real issue with you paying to see 5th street and make your next "decision" there.

      What you fail to recognize though is that your opponent bricked, but so did YOU. You need to develop the ability to rad the BEST potential draw in your opponent's hand, as well as the best potential draw in YOUR hand.

      On the 5th street here, your BEST possible hand was a QT "perfect" (A3 under), meaing you are drawing to a TEN at best!

      Your opponent, since he completed into the bring in and 2 callers, is probably NOT double bricked here, so he is drawing to an 86 at worst (unless he is double bricked and totally screwed). Your stack size is not large enough to risk that check/raise to "find out" if he IS double bricked though, because by the time he calls (or folds) you will have to put in 25% of your start stack.

      Furthermore, your opponent probably KNOWS you are well behind here, even though HE is still drawing, since the best you can be holding is a draw to a Ten...


      His 2nd pair brick 3 was really moot for his hand strength. since he did have the 4 card 8 draw when he called your 5th street raise, he was stuck to this pot pretty much. YOUR 2nd T sealed it for him, as at that point the BEST hand you an make is a T low...he ain't folding an 8 draw to your T draw on 6th street for the measely 345 you got left with the pot at 1450...see?

      There was no point in this hand where you were "ahead", and there was no point in this hand where it even APPEARED you might be ahead. Had you seen this sooner, you could have easily avoided getting stuck to this pot. Your opponent saw it, and he did everything he could to get you all in when he had every reason to suspect he held the best draw.

      This easily could have been avoided.
      Double Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        Yeah Panicky..this isn't looking too good from the start. In my limited razz experience, there is no bluffing with up cards like yours here. The other player is drawing to an 8 low, and that alone will keep most players in until 7th street. Then at 7th st, he is likely calling you with even a ten low, maybe even a J or Q low.
        Remember, in razz, a good starting hand is an 8 low. And hopefully the 8 is down.
        I'm not saying you always need to be this tight, but if you ever want to pull off a bluff in a limit game like razz, you want the image of being tight, otherwise there just is no value in folding to someone who may bluff.
        One other thing, for me, I'm never check-raising in razz, unless the opponent is some super aggro maniac who can't find the check button. Lead out and keep raising when you have it in razz. The only time I check in razz is if I don't have it, I can't bluff at it (I don't have superior up-cards to my opponents) and 7th street, if the opponent has up cards that may allow him to have a hand at the end...anyone can catch up there.


        • #5
          Originally posted by JDean View Post
          Just watching this hand kinda reveals you are not very familiar with Razz, are you?
          Doesn't shock me. I've played it maybe ten times (all in 8-Game rotations), and I've never studied it.

          Good info here. I'll be more selective of my starting hands in the future.


          • #6
            razz is one of my favourite poker games, just isn't enough of it around for me however when entering a pot you really need the 3 cards under 8 to consider playing it, however if you had say ACE 2,3 or 4 with any picture i would consider playing that, 8 5 isn't good enough for me to enter personally with the Q exposed, but as has been pointed out the guy with the 6 exposed at the start wasn't going anywhere even when he paired looking at what you were showing, i certainly wouldnt of at best you were always going to be 10 high.



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