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Two pair after flop: Is shoving the wrong move?

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  • Two pair after flop: Is shoving the wrong move?

    My last hand this evening and really a bummer I felt. The villain was tight but being German had a propensity for calling with A rag which is why I called on the small blind. Once the flop came I knew I was ahead and that he probably had the Ace. I felt my two pair were good and went all in to get the most value. My image was definitely tight aggressive and I had won a few hands with dirt without the hands being shown but all the showdown hands I had the best of it. I did think about waiting for the turn but I had already lost with two pair four times this evening when raising on the turn and river; I was pretty sick at people hitting a King; to get a higher two pair; a two to get a set; and a six to get an inside str draw and a two outer. What is the best way to play two pair when you know you have the opponent beat but the river and sometimes the turn and river delivers the cards for them. ´Thanks TC BTW I think I gave him pot odds but I thought he would kop on that I was raising all in with better than a pair of Aces. Maybe I just give some players a greater grounding for commonsense than should be warranted..... TC
    Last edited by topthecat; Wed Apr 27, 2011, 03:10 AM.

  • #2
    To be honest, I think you played the hand great, but just got outdrawn in the end. If you know you're a favorite after the flop, and your read tells you that he is very often in the situation with ace-rag, you made a very good play. In poker, sometimes the underdog does draw out, I mean you were almost a 3 to 1 favorite after the flop.
    Bad things happen, but I think you played this well. Beside calling a raise with Q-5 off in SB, but if your read on the guy suggests that, and he is pulling this with ace-rag often, you had every reason to do what you did, but got unlucky on the river.
    But then again, I'm no expert, so I'm just speaking my view on the matter.


    • #3
      Q5 would be a fold for me knowing that the villian is playing any ace and that usually is the case for most players in that position.Consider it to be like J5 or 27os,your not playing those.

      You could call,but like you say it is easy to be drawn out on.
      Im happy getting it in on the flop like you played it.But would lean heavy towards a fold preflop.

      Pretty random for him to hit the 4 on the river,would write this off as a bad beat.


      • #4
        Unfortunately it is a common mistake to worry about the actions/results which lost you the hand and not the validity of actions which make poker sense.

        To put this in perspective here's what I see:

        1. You got it all in ahead and lost and are concerned about this.

        2. You made a poor play preflop and are not concerned about this.

        So I see this often where people get it in ahead and lose and ask a lot of questions about why they failed. When you get it in ahead it's not a failure, move on from that. Do not concentrate on the times when you got your money in good and "chance" dictated the results.

        You can not modify chance, only your play.

        So, why is the preflop play poor?

        You can not flat with Q5o OOP in a HU situation profitably. You will not be overly excited about extracting enough value when you hit your queen to overcome the odds of winning a hand with Q5.

        Let's get this in perspective, say you have a 30% chance of winning a hand OOP with Q5o which is high (because you're folding a ton post flop).

        That means you need to get another 1200 off your opponent to make this call. So what's your plan, is it leading into the PFR? That certainly doesn't sound good with a queen and no kicker, he's calling a ton when he has you beat, and just folding when he has nothing.

        That's not how to get that 1200. Ok, so do you call OOP when you check to him and hit your queen? That's sketchy because then what happens on the turn?

        Do you lead into him to take it down? No, you can't he bet the queen and you're way ahead way behind now. So a bet is only getting called by better hands (and some PPs I guess).

        It's just a mess.

        So, you can't flat here without a plan, and this is a very bad spot for micro players to be in post flop.

        You can 3bet here if this guy is opening a wide range of hands. So you can make this 1850 preflop, and just dump the hand post flop (which is exactly what you needed to extract postflop anyway 600 + another 1200 for this to be valuable when you flat), but INSTEAD you get the added value of fold equity by three betting.

        You need to fold this 80% of the time at minimum and 3bet the rest.

        Lay off the concerns about what you did wrong getting it in ahead


        • #5
          In the words of apestyles, calling this preflop is purchasing the right to play a bad hand out of position. Why do you want to buy that right?

          I'm in agreement with the others, fold pre unless it's a good resteal spot. Fold > 3b > call. Mostly just fold.
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          • #6
            On the flop it seems to me like against halfway decent villains you'll be value owning yourself too often with this line. Vs. a guy who is playing any ace and calling it off with any ace (good read, he clearly is if he called it off with A4), your equity is good. Vs. a range of AA, QQ, 55, AQ (beating you) and Ax (you're beating) you're a 62-38 favorite. So given your read the flop play is fine. umbup:
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            • #7
              Thanks everyone,

              I realise the call preflop is pretty bad and I should have raised if i was going to play this weak of a hand out of position.

              I had been card dead for about three rounds and every round the villain was stealing the blinds and having played him before and watched at this table I knew he was stealing light.

              I dunno I just felt the flop was going be good for me, I just did not look beyond that I suppose.




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