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right fold eventually, lol

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  • right fold eventually, lol

    i'm thinking i should maybe of folded this preflop.

    http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=45CA6D1248

    PokerStars Game #60759542801: Tournament #385096307, $0.25+$0.00 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (20/40) - 2011/04/13 7:49:51 ET
    Table '385096307 6' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
    Seat 1: a346tn163 (6010 in chips)
    Seat 2: erboy43 (2740 in chips)
    Seat 3: cirk0 (1963 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
    Seat 5: Zoltat (6990 in chips)
    Seat 6: VfLKaschi (6778 in chips)
    Seat 7: calllee (2105 in chips)
    Seat 8: bashy27 (4912 in chips)
    Seat 9: N_alexandr (3905 in chips)
    Zoltat: posts small blind 20
    VfLKaschi: posts big blind 40
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to bashy27 [Jd Ah]
    calllee: folds
    bashy27: raises 80 to 120
    N_alexandr: calls 120
    a346tn163: folds
    erboy43: calls 120
    Zoltat: folds
    VfLKaschi: raises 120 to 240
    bashy27: calls 120
    N_alexandr: calls 120
    erboy43: calls 120
    *** FLOP *** [2s Qd 3h]
    VfLKaschi: bets 240
    bashy27: folds
    N_alexandr: calls 240
    erboy43: folds
    *** TURN *** [2s Qd 3h] [Qs]
    VfLKaschi: checks
    N_alexandr: bets 730
    VfLKaschi: calls 730
    *** RIVER *** [2s Qd 3h Qs] [Kd]
    VfLKaschi: checks
    N_alexandr: checks
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    VfLKaschi: shows [Ac Ad] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
    N_alexandr: mucks hand
    VfLKaschi collected 2920 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 2920 | Rake 0
    Board [2s Qd 3h Qs Kd]
    Seat 1: a346tn163 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: erboy43 (button) folded on the Flop
    Seat 5: Zoltat (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 6: VfLKaschi (big blind) showed [Ac Ad] and won (2920) with two pair, Aces and Queens
    Seat 7: calllee folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: bashy27 folded on the Flop
    Seat 9: N_alexandr mucked [5h 5d]

    upto this point these are my stats from the game. During current Hold'em session you were dealt 42 hands and saw flop:
    - 2 out of 5 times while in big blind (40%)
    - 0 out of 5 times while in small blind (0%)
    - 4 out of 32 times in other positions (12%)
    - a total of 6 out of 42 (14%)
    Pots won at showdown - 2 of 2 (100%)
    Pots won without showdown - 4

    am i playing too tight? should i open my range up?
    Last edited by bashy27; Wed Apr 13, 2011, 09:12 PM.

  • #2
    this hand took me out of the game i was in above, should or could i of played it differently?


    PokerStars Game #60760573661: Tournament #385096850, $0.25+$0.00 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2011/04/13 8:24:37 ET
    Table '385096850 2' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
    Seat 1: bashy27 (4415 in chips)
    Seat 3: donmaestro82 (17011 in chips)
    Seat 4: eik44 (4155 in chips)
    Seat 5: zuhermano (450 in chips)
    Seat 6: ahelld333 (5042 in chips)
    Seat 8: SAMarques (5977 in chips)
    Seat 9: merden81 (2795 in chips)
    bashy27: posts small blind 100
    donmaestro82: posts big blind 200
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to bashy27 [Jc Js]
    eik44: folds
    zuhermano: raises 250 to 450 and is all-in
    ahelld333: calls 450
    SAMarques: folds
    merden81: calls 450
    bashy27: raises 750 to 1200
    donmaestro82: folds
    ahelld333: calls 750
    merden81: calls 750
    *** FLOP *** [2h 8h 7c]
    bashy27: bets 3215 and is all-in
    ahelld333: raises 627 to 3842 and is all-in
    merden81: calls 1595 and is all-in
    Uncalled bet (627) returned to ahelld333
    *** TURN *** [2h 8h 7c] [Qh]
    *** RIVER *** [2h 8h 7c Qh] [Th]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    bashy27: shows [Jc Js] (a pair of Jacks)
    ahelld333: shows [8s 7s] (two pair, Eights and Sevens)
    ahelld333 collected 3240 from side pot-2
    merden81: shows [Tc 9s] (a pair of Tens)
    ahelld333 collected 7035 from side pot-1
    zuhermano: shows [5d Ac] (high card Ace)
    ahelld333 collected 2000 from main pot
    bashy27 finished the tournament in 13th place
    merden81 finished the tournament in 14th place
    zuhermano finished the tournament in 15th place
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 12275 Main pot 2000. Side pot-1 7035. Side pot-2 3240. | Rake 0
    Board [2h 8h 7c Qh Th]
    Seat 1: bashy27 (small blind) showed [Jc Js] and lost with a pair of Jacks
    Seat 3: donmaestro82 (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 4: eik44 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: zuhermano showed [5d Ac] and lost with high card Ace
    Seat 6: ahelld333 showed [8s 7s] and won (12275) with two pair, Eights and Sevens
    Seat 8: SAMarques folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: merden81 (button) showed [Tc 9s] and lost with a pair of Tens

    these were my final stats including that last hand
    During current Hold'em session you were dealt 74 hands and saw flop:
    - 6 out of 10 times while in big blind (60%)
    - 1 out of 10 times while in small blind (10%)
    - 7 out of 54 times in other positions (12%)
    - a total of 14 out of 74 (18%)
    Pots won at showdown - 4 of 5 (80%)
    Pots won without showdown - 4

    Comment


    • #3
      You've picked up some chips already, so you are on very deep money here.

      In those 25c multi-table SNGs, play tends to be SO LOOSE (and passive) pre-flop, that a hand like AJo does become somewhat playable from EP...at least to a greater extent than in a tourney with a stronger field. As long as you have the discipline not to get "married" to a top pair hand, this isn't dangerously loose.

      Your open raise was pretty "standard", and is definately not so large that you are going to feel "stuck" to this pot, so that is good.

      Also, those "leaky" little min raisers are pretty common from the blinds, and do not necessarily indicate great strength (although here it was done with strength of course).

      With the 2 callers of your open raise behind, you gotta expect at least 1 of those is calling the min raise too, so the fact you call in ahead of 'em (both do in actuality) means you are probably getting a pretty decent price to play here.

      Finally, 240 is still a bit under 5% of your total stack, so calling that min raise is not a huge deal.

      I see nothing REALLY wrong with your pre-flop actions...

      The flop comes and you totally air-ball it; no pair, no solid re-draw chances, nuttin'. The min raiser leads out for a tiny bet of 240 into the 980 pot. Despite pretty "fat" odds, you suss out the threat here, and dump your rather "hopleless" hand, instead of weakly chasing an Ace (like a lot of folks will do in these); Nice job.

      Nope...nothing heinously wrong at all with your play.

      Now your question:

      That's tough to say...

      Just looking at your stats, they are pretty much right where I want mine to be at these early stages. Those stats indicate you are probably playing a pretty "solid" range of hands, and are finding that post-flop play is pretty much an easy proposition: either you have top pair/good kick or an over pair, or you don't. Simple decisions are good.

      As your current stack size indicates (doubled +, or tripled +, depending on whether this is a 45 or 90 man), you are probably finding it pretty easy to get paid on your ABC type hands, right?

      If it is working, why change anything?

      Sure, it is more FUN to become involved in more pots...mixing it up with those small pockets and suited connectors. But look at the RESULT of this hand: a guy with 55 called a raise AND a re-raise pre-flop, then called a flop BET...do you REALLY want to beome "card dependant" with drawing hands when playing against opponents who are this tough to shake?

      The fact is, only later on, when the stacks have sorted into "deep stacks and short stacks", AND when the blinds have risen to the point where you can apply pressure with semi-bluff bets does it become really effective to widen your start range against people who do not have a "fold button" with 50+ BB in front of them. Sure, if you DO spike your draw against these folks on deep money, they will PAY you, but without the ability to exert pressure to get them to FOLD, you are more likely to lose chips "chasing" draws that just do not get there.

      So there is nothing wrong at all with "playing for pairs and kickers" early in these micro events against a lot of newer/less aware players. It makes your decisions a lot easier, and you do not really lose a who lot of chances to chip up.
      Last edited by JDean; Wed Apr 13, 2011, 03:52 PM.
      Double Bracelet Winner

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by bashy27 View Post
        this hand took me out of the game i was in above, should or could i of played it differently?


        PokerStars Game #60760573661: Tournament #385096850, $0.25+$0.00 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2011/04/13 8:24:37 ET
        Table '385096850 2' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
        Seat 1: bashy27 (4415 in chips)
        Seat 3: donmaestro82 (17011 in chips)
        Seat 4: eik44 (4155 in chips)
        Seat 5: zuhermano (450 in chips)
        Seat 6: ahelld333 (5042 in chips)
        Seat 8: SAMarques (5977 in chips)
        Seat 9: merden81 (2795 in chips)
        bashy27: posts small blind 100
        donmaestro82: posts big blind 200
        *** HOLE CARDS ***
        Dealt to bashy27 [Jc Js]
        eik44: folds
        zuhermano: raises 250 to 450 and is all-in
        ahelld333: calls 450
        SAMarques: folds
        merden81: calls 450
        bashy27: raises 750 to 1200
        donmaestro82: folds
        ahelld333: calls 750
        merden81: calls 750
        *** FLOP *** [2h 8h 7c]
        bashy27: bets 3215 and is all-in
        ahelld333: raises 627 to 3842 and is all-in
        merden81: calls 1595 and is all-in
        Uncalled bet (627) returned to ahelld333
        *** TURN *** [2h 8h 7c] [Qh]
        *** RIVER *** [2h 8h 7c Qh] [Th]
        *** SHOW DOWN ***
        bashy27: shows [Jc Js] (a pair of Jacks)
        ahelld333: shows [8s 7s] (two pair, Eights and Sevens)
        ahelld333 collected 3240 from side pot-2
        merden81: shows [Tc 9s] (a pair of Tens)
        ahelld333 collected 7035 from side pot-1
        zuhermano: shows [5d Ac] (high card Ace)
        ahelld333 collected 2000 from main pot
        bashy27 finished the tournament in 13th place
        merden81 finished the tournament in 14th place
        zuhermano finished the tournament in 15th place
        *** SUMMARY ***
        Total pot 12275 Main pot 2000. Side pot-1 7035. Side pot-2 3240. | Rake 0
        Board [2h 8h 7c Qh Th]
        Seat 1: bashy27 (small blind) showed [Jc Js] and lost with a pair of Jacks
        Seat 3: donmaestro82 (big blind) folded before Flop
        Seat 4: eik44 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
        Seat 5: zuhermano showed [5d Ac] and lost with high card Ace
        Seat 6: ahelld333 showed [8s 7s] and won (12275) with two pair, Eights and Sevens
        Seat 8: SAMarques folded before Flop (didn't bet)
        Seat 9: merden81 (button) showed [Tc 9s] and lost with a pair of Tens

        these were my final stats including that last hand
        During current Hold'em session you were dealt 74 hands and saw flop:
        - 6 out of 10 times while in big blind (60%)
        - 1 out of 10 times while in small blind (10%)
        - 7 out of 54 times in other positions (12%)
        - a total of 14 out of 74 (18%)
        Pots won at showdown - 4 of 5 (80%)
        Pots won without showdown - 4
        You need to give a "range read" on these opponents to determine whether you played this well, or poorly. Without that, all I can answer is with generalities...

        OK...

        There is an all-in for about 7%-8% of ahelld's stack, and he calls with a 78s.

        (I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here, by a BIG margin!)

        This is a bit "loose" of him, but if the table dynamic is pretty passive, there are worst things one can do than enter with mid suited connectors into what figures to be a "dry pot"; at least if no one raises BEHIND him, it is decently possible he will get to see "free cards". And if there is no raise, this is a pretty "small" portion of his stack.

        Merden though, cannot say the same! He calls along as well for almost 20% of HIS stack. He should definately be raising here (if he thinks he can squeeze ahelld out leaving dead money), or FOLDING.

        We get to you, and with your JJ, you RAISE (as you should). Your raise was too small...

        Look at this:
        all-in for 450 + 2 callers (900) + 1200 (from you) = 2550 in the pot.

        Either of the 2 callers now needs only to call 750 to keep going; they are getting 3.4 to 1. the 2nd t come along then has even better dds.

        This means the first one to play only needs roughly a 22.7% chance to out flop whatever you hold to have some "reason" in calling along; all your raise did was "bloat" this pot.

        Your raise of 750 really would be a lot better if there were only 1 player who had called the all-in, but even then it might be a bit too small. Consider...

        By raising here, you have kept this pot from going to the flop "dry"; there will be a side pot to "fight" over. This means you are probably going to have to play some "post-flop poker" here.

        That 1200 you put in with your raise equals about 27% of your start stack. Roughly 57% of the time there will be at least 1 over card to your JJ on the flop, and you will not hold a set. Are you really "comfortable" betting into a board over card to your JJ? Are you really "comfortable" folding away that much of your stack if someone else bets?

        See how "tricky" you've made your situation by overly "encouraging" callers with a hand that is vulnerable on a lot of flops?

        The problem is that you cannot really raise LARGER than the amount you did without pretty much committing yourself for all your chips no matter what comes. This is why it is important to have a "range read" on these opponents who have called the all-in. With that info you can better decide whether to possibly raise MORE (or even pre-flop shove) here, flat call to play the pot "dry", or even potentially FOLD.

        Since you did not give that info, I must assume you didn't have it...you might want to work a bit on sharpening your ability to make range reads on your opponents.

        Finally...

        Flop comes 8 hi, with straight and flush draws possible. You hold a board over pair.

        With 27% of your stack in pre-flop, I really do not see anything wrong with your shove here.

        Yes, there is "danger", but check/calling isn't going to help that, so you may as well put 'em in with what is quite often the best hand right there, and if the villains wanna draw- let 'em.

        You got out flopped by the 87s, and that's too bad. It happens.

        Realisitically though, your "mistake" happened earlier:

        First: when you did not have an effective range read on these guys so you can (possibly) shove "comfortably"...

        Second: when you failed to bet enough to deny odds for them to stick around on their cheese hands.

        It happens dude, and it is a VERY hard thing grasp, believe me (it took me YEARS to get it!).
        But you want to bet to ENCOURAGE CALLS, but DENY ODDS if you think you hold the best hand.

        In this hand, you certainly encouraged calls with your small bet, but by laying the first person to call you 3.4 to 1, you were NOT "denying odds".

        I'm sure next time you'll get 'em though!

        Good luck!
        Last edited by JDean; Wed Apr 13, 2011, 04:39 PM.
        Double Bracelet Winner

        Comment


        • #5
          thanks for the replies, they are very insightful.
          most of the ranges of my opponents could of been anything from aces to 23os the table was that bad, most didn't have a fold button. i think even a preflop shove would of gotten the exact same callers, so in that respect i don't feel as though i could of done anything different (other than shove PF) i wanted input to see how to play these hands in the future.

          (sort of why i am posting so many - sorry)

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't like the play with AJ preflop. I would generally only open this in EP if the table were overly tight giving me good steal equity, or overly loose calling raises with A-rag and any 2 broadways giving me good value. Calling this 3b is a leak. It's not exactly a min raise (you raised 80, he's raising 120 more not 80 more). Even though you have position on the raiser, this will usually indicate real strength vs. a multi-way field (I would expect, even in a .25c buy in), and AJ is not going to play well post flop. You'll frequently either be folding to a cbet or you'll be in a big pot with 1 pair and can't play it confidently vs. his continuing range as much of it will have you crushed. Not a great scenario.
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            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TheLangolier View Post
              I don't like the play with AJ preflop. I would generally only open this in EP if the table were overly tight giving me good steal equity, or overly loose calling raises with A-rag and any 2 broadways giving me good value. Calling this 3b is a leak. It's not exactly a min raise (you raised 80, he's raising 120 more not 80 more). Even though you have position on the raiser, this will usually indicate real strength vs. a multi-way field (I would expect, even in a .25c buy in), and AJ is not going to play well post flop. You'll frequently either be folding to a cbet or you'll be in a big pot with 1 pair and can't play it confidently vs. his continuing range as much of it will have you crushed. Not a great scenario.

              FYI Dave...

              I have played a LOT of the 25c games.

              That type of min raise (ok, NEAR min raise) is REALLY likely to be a very weak pp, 22/66, or something like QJ/KQ more often than not.

              Of course in any event without the excessive looseness of these, I agree totally with you.

              Fact is though, it still boils down to having an effective range read on opponents to enter oop with a pretty marginal hand like AJo.

              My comments were really geared toward the specific event type, and what I've "seen" quite a bit of in those events. I really would not advocate a newer player, or any player who cannot yet establish a range read on opponents, to be entering ANY pots with AJo UTG or UTG +1. That hand simply looks too "pretty", and contains too much potential TROUBLE to really "like" open raising that early...

              ...but in a 25c, there are SO MANY players who are calling (and even small raising) on LESS, that you do tend to benefit a bit from widening your start range.
              Double Bracelet Winner

              Comment


              • #8
                What a joke...

                This is why HH forms shouldn't be moderated by non pro's.

                This is an easy fold UTG+1. Then he gets 3 bet weak by the BB again easy fold. Lets think about this:

                1) The player is OOP = strength

                2) He's 3 betting 3 other players = strength

                3) He doesn't want the other players to fold other wise he would have 3 bet more preflop = strength

                4) If he had face cards or a small pair he would be more likely to just call preflop

                If we put all this together it has trap written all over it. TheLangolier is spot on this call is a leak. Also the other players are not likely to fold for such a small raise which means he is OOP in the hand and in a 3 way pot AJ isn't going to play well post flop. As TheLangolier said "You'll frequently either be folding to a cbet or you'll be in a big pot with 1 pair and can't play it confidently vs. his continuing range as much of it will have you crushed." With this hand and 3 other players you are likely to win a small pot or lose a big one more often then not.
                Last edited by R1J1J; Sat Apr 16, 2011, 04:01 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  AJ in EP calling a 3bet is a leak. People often over call 3bets with what is a marginal holding at the top of their range OOP.

                  Let me restate that again, think of the top of your range.. so let's say you open EP at the top of your range. A person playing 17/12ish will open in EP at 6%ish

                  Which is: 88+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+

                  Now consider the range that people will 3bet which is going to be close to this range from loose players, and much tighter for TAGs.

                  Now factor in you would like to play OOP ahead of their range when they three bet you.

                  Unless you have a maniac, you really should not be cold calling OOP in positions like this.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    in high stakes games, or games where players think about position, bets, odds, outs etc then yeah maybe ACE Jack os is an "EASY" fold UTG or UTG +1.

                    lets put the hand back into context, playing a 25c game where players are calling, betting and raising with nothing, hitting one outers etc etc etc, my ace jack could of been against 72os the way the table was playing, i would rather try a raise with it, maybe even call a 3 bet (as i did in this case) and look for further info on the flop.
                    i agree i maybe should not of played this, i did and maybe played it badly. I openly admit to still learning the game, hence why i place hands on here for more info.

                    i think one of the biggest things i have learnt so far is that not everyone plays text book poker, so when you do try to play that way and you get bad beats it is more frustrating.

                    i sat in a game tonight and folded my 1st 40 hands, i raised the button with aces and was pushed all in by the BB who claimed i was just trying to steal the blinds, i lost the hand by the way to jack 9 off, this was on a 1 table SnG.

                    so this starts to open up the questions:

                    what is the point in playing a tight game if opponents don't notice it?
                    why wait for good hands in position?
                    why not play hands like AJ os, 87 suited, small pocket pairs from early position?
                    how do you learn to bluff etc if only waiting for premium hands in position?
                    how can you mix your play up if only playing the same sort of hands from late positions?


                    please don't get me wrong i appreciate the time and effort that people are putting into helping others out and evaluating hands so that we may draw on that advice in future situations, but it does leave me curious to the questions above.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Opening AJo in EP is a leak with in it self I would say... I can't say it should never be done but for the most part this hand is a fold in EP.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree you need to practice to bluff at times. But the time is not a 25c game. The reason why is these are filled with calling stations as you suggested. The value you get from playing a table with calling stations is not by playing less then optimal hands and bluffing them.

                        So first in these tourneys practice getting value when you hit a hand, practice patience, and practice pot control.

                        Work in steps and you will really improve your game.

                        I was talking to someone recently about the ability to learn multiple facets of the game, it is not the correct way to learn. Pick one thing you are not good at and practice this until it becomes instinctual to play it correctly, then proceed to the next. Always practice what is appropriate for the level of play you are playing. Make your learning valid and efficient.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In a $0.25 game you should be playing more for value then to bluff. With a lot of callers your AJo isn't that great of a hand and look what happened you got 3 bet. Like I said easy fold pre. At micro you should be playing more of a text book style to beat the other players. FYI you can't bluff a station.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            this particular hand wasn't about bluffing, the cards that had been getting played and taken to showdown were often a lot worse than the AJ i played, i truly believed it was the best hand to start with.

                            the 3 betting (4 bets etc) are all still fairly new to me, i will be honest i had thought about shoving after he 3 bet me as my gut feeling was he was trying to steal, i decided on the flat call of the 3 bet to see how the flop and play worked out afterwards.

                            (i agree with you all it was a leak, trying to raise with it in EP probably wasn't a great play either)

                            however if you can raise in EP with AJ os and it gets through and you pick up blinds surely it is worth doing every now and then? or if you only get one call again it could potentially be profitable for you.

                            is it better to raise UTG with ace jack and get called/raised or 7 2 os from the button and get called/raised? (when you are first to enter the pot)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yes I hear you, but this is not a profitable thought process:

                              however if you can raise in EP with AJ os and it gets through and you pick up blinds surely it is worth doing every now and then? or if you only get one call again it could potentially be profitable for you.

                              Comment

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