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cant figurue this out ,hope this works

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  • cant figurue this out ,hope this works

    66 **************
    PokerStars Game #60696395333: Tournament #379718710, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2011/04/11 21:42:22 ET
    Table '379718710 19' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: EasyChips4U (1017 in chips)
    Seat 2: II CoTe ll (3773 in chips)
    Seat 3: AlphaAero (8798 in chips)
    Seat 4: JasperTex (11405 in chips)
    Seat 5: wizecrckr101 (10747 in chips)
    Seat 6: mrchaps05 (1120 in chips)
    Seat 7: catfishken (4805 in chips)
    Seat 8: lil Ms.Bluff (5475 in chips)
    Seat 9: alumeye (11791 in chips)
    EasyChips4U: posts the ante 50
    II CoTe ll: posts the ante 50
    AlphaAero: posts the ante 50
    JasperTex: posts the ante 50
    wizecrckr101: posts the ante 50
    mrchaps05: posts the ante 50
    catfishken: posts the ante 50
    lil Ms.Bluff: posts the ante 50
    alumeye: posts the ante 50
    mrchaps05: posts small blind 300
    catfishken: posts big blind 600
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to mrchaps05 [Kc 9d]
    lil Ms.Bluff: folds
    alumeye: folds
    EasyChips4U: folds
    II CoTe ll: folds
    AlphaAero: raises 1200 to 1800
    JasperTex: folds
    wizecrckr101: folds
    mrchaps05: calls 770 and is all-in
    catfishken: folds
    Uncalled bet (730) returned to AlphaAero
    mrchaps05 said, "GG all"
    *** FLOP *** [4d Th 6s]
    *** TURN *** [4d Th 6s] [3s]
    *** RIVER *** [4d Th 6s 3s] [Jc]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    mrchaps05: shows [Kc 9d] (high card King)
    AlphaAero: shows [6h 6d] (three of a kind, Sixes)
    AlphaAero collected 3190 from pot
    mrchaps05 finished the tournament in 362nd place
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 3190 | Rake 0
    Board [4d Th 6s 3s Jc]
    Seat 1: EasyChips4U folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: II CoTe ll folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: AlphaAero showed [6h 6d] and won (3190) with three of a kind, Sixes
    Seat 4: JasperTex folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: wizecrckr101 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: mrchaps05 (small blind) showed [Kc 9d] and lost with high card King
    Seat 7: catfishken (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 8: lil Ms.Bluff folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: alumeye folded before Flop (didn't bet)

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  • #2
    Since you do not have a specific question, I will just give my opinion:

    This short, K9 is "ok" to call here, but honestly: what did you fold in the BB, and what was the action the hand before????

    If you are going to "justify" a stand with a hand as weak as this from the SB, versus a RAISER, then oyu have to have a pretty good reason not to have made your stand the hand before. consider...

    Right now you have 770 behind your 300 post.
    the raiser has already made it more than your stack to go, so you have zero fold equity.

    In the BB, you held 1070 behind your 600 post.
    even a 72o is probably AT LEAST 32% or so to win versus un-paired cards.

    When you are this short, you really have to be looking for ANY hand with which you can exercise "first in vigorish" (you are the first to enter the pot) BEFORE you get to the blinds. If you cannot find that spot, fine.

    Once you are in the blinds, with less than 1.5 BB left after posting, you are probably valid in "going" on Any 2. If you pass up your BB all you are doing is costing yourself an "extra" 600 you MIGHT win by folding away 1/3rd+ of your stack.

    No matter WHAT your BB hand is/was, you are going to need to "get lucky" to get back in this MTT. so if you "waited" for the SB to see a "better" hand like K9o, I think you amy have waited 1 hand too long.

    sorry, but that is the best I can do without more info, or a specific "question"...
    Double Bracelet Winner


    • #3

      TY jdean,without posting a question you anseward mine.When I was in BB I had 9h5c. I play preaty tight in the PSO.I dont realy like blinding out though. In this hand there was only 1 person in when it got to me so I thought I might get lucky and chip up for a few more points.But with less than 1BB left I felt this was a good call.


      • #4
        I've always had the idea that negative points were a sign that you were doing something wrong.

        And I've been getting a lot of negative points and have in fact been doing a lot of things.

        But lately I've been thinking that if the cards are stale one day, half an hour into the game when blinds hit 100, if you're already at the 10BB mark and the "correct" thing to do is shove and you get called by a coin-flip hand (eg pocket pair versus 2 overs like AK), half of the time wouldn't that mean even a perfect player who's doing everything right should still probably be getting knocked out early and accruing negative points at least some of the time due to variance?

        The only way to not get negative points if the cards just aren't coming would be to ignore the textbook that says to start shoving at 10BB, isn't that right? So is a lack of negative points maybe a sign that people are doing what they're not supposed to be doing according to the textbook - blinding out waiting for a top 10 hand rather than shoving to take advantage of fold equity?

        I wonder if you actually make more points in the long-run by being willing to do things according to the textbook like JD describes above (that's teached in PSO courses, and in Langolier's middle to short-stack class) Because then there's a greater chance of making the money, wouldn't there be?

        My game's kind of a disaster, but even with my massive negative pointage, I'm still averaging something like 23 points a game by trying to play the game textbook - that's kind of surprising isn't it? I wish I could find a way to minimize the negative points though - working really hard to plug my leaks ...
        Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Apr 13, 2011, 06:56 AM.


        • #5

          PSO is a very SPECIAL "animal" so far as MTT play goes.

          Since you are really (hopefully) looking for CUMULATIVE SCORE across an entire month of play, you really do fore-go a lot of things that are "valid" in a normal pay structure MTT. My advice here was for a NORMAL event. For a PSO event, you may was well fold the K9o TOO, instead of calling in on a very marginal hand; my answer really should have said: "if you are gunna "stand" on a marginal hand like K9o by calling all in, you are better off standing on a similarly marginal hand, only 1 hand earlier...if not, FOLD".

          In a PSO event, if you are going for a monthly score, there are sometimes it is better to blind out...

          I know you guys didn;t ask, but let's look at some differences in "decisions" about shove/fold hands for normal MTT pla, and PSO play:

          the MAJOR difference between the 2 types of events lies in your decisions about blinding out vs. picking a "stand hand".

          In a normal pay structure tourney, you generally make "profit" for a min cash of anywhere between 33% to 100% of your buy in ($1.50 to $2.50 pay out for a $1.10 event). A 1st place in those events can pay 100+ times the percentage profit you can make for a min cash ($100+). The amount you win also escalates pretty consistently for even 5 to 15 spots you move up.

          In a PSO, making the min cash is worth about a 75% to 100+% increase in point return over a non-cash "bubble" finish. Thereafter, your point increase (as a % of what you have just from a min cash) is very SMALL until the final late in then table.

          This means in a NORMAL Event, unless you are VERY CLOSE to the itm, or unless a min cash is a LARGE increase to your bank roll, you usually benefit more in the long run by any double up's you'd get by "standing" on a stack around 10 BB; EVEN IF YOU MISS THE MONEY BY DOING SO! This is because the greater number of chips you win if you "survive" will tend to propel you deeper into the money, and going deeper into the money means you win MORE money. That "extra" money can off-set the times you "fail" when you do make your stand.

          In a PSO, the large bulk of any points you get for a tourney played will be derived simply from making a min cash or even lasting as close to a min cash as you can. Thereafter, the additional points you gain from "lasting" are very very small. This means simply making a min cash will get you a large percentage of any "benefit" you are likely to see from an event, so doing that with even 1 chip left is worthwhile. This also greatly REDUCES the benefit of "standing" on a 10BB stack, since those extra chips you'd win from standing (and possibly NOT making a min cash) will not likely result in a significant increase in your overall tourney points.


          That is the key point of why PSO events paly so "tightly".

          PSO's tend to benefit "ladder climbing". "Ladder climbing" is the act of AVOIDING risk in order to outlast more runners. By avoiding chip loss in lieu of gaining extra chips in closer "edge" situations, you "survive" longer, but give yourself very little real chance of going extremely DEEP in the event.

          This emphasis on ladder climbing is perfectly valid in PSO play simply because PSO is a MONTHLY league. Each score you make is a cumulative score, and the system is not designed to "reward" risk assessment designed to propel you deep into an event.

          This sort of league has validity as a teaching tool because most beginning players play too loosely, and accept too MUCH "risk" into their games. It is a much needed "lesson" for those sorts of players to hone their games in a situation where consistentcy is paramount, and the improvement a dynamic like the PSO brings to the overall DECISION process is an awesome "first step" on the road to putting yourself CONSISTENTLY into a position to make it ITM in a normal MTT play.

          So while some of the decisions PSO seems to "teach" through the league paly may run counter to normal MTT strategy, it is incumbent upon YOU, as a player, to learn the lessons offered, and then go BEYOND those lessons for your overall game plan.

          There is no real way around having a monthly cumulative scoring league be anything BUT a "ladder climber's paradise", simply because even a small increase per event will always be "good" in such a league. This will tend to always skew the decision balance away from chip accumulation and toward survival. So it comes down to you to USE the PSO league as practice to move beond that "score based" thinking when you are ready to play a lot of real money MTTs.

          But by all means, I cannot stress this enough: Learn the lessons PSO has to teach you FIRST!

          This is a great place to start.

          Double Bracelet Winner


          • #6
            Thx JD

            I really like the idea of learning how to extend one's tournament life within those guidelines of looking for opportunities to shove when 10BB hits to avoid getting really short-stacked. I'm finding PSO really good for that with the negative points - kind of like paying to play a tournie, there being a cost.

            Today I lasted 45 minutes, so I seem to be improving (hopefully?) by incorporating more and more of the stuff from Langolier's medium to short-stack class, you know like not just making a move, but looking for that right opportunity to make that moveto minimize risk and stuff. It was going pretty well, and then I got impatient and called a shove by another short-stack with AJ, and just had a feeling that I could have been in trouble, and sure enough they had AQ. Times like that, I could see how it would have been better for me to sit on my 6BB and just wait, even if that meant risking getting blinded out, you figure?
            Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Apr 14, 2011, 06:12 AM.



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