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Should I have gone All In pre-flop?

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  • Should I have gone All In pre-flop?

    Shortly after watching the live training (hosted by TheLangolier) on Sunday about Fifty50’s…I entered one for the first time. My table image, at this point, is pretty tight. With the exception of Villain1 (who was more aggressive than the rest of us but was not being a pain in the butt) everyone else were somewhat “tight'ish” … I’m in middle position with 23.5 BBs (4th in chips). Blinds are at 40/80 ante 5. 9 players are left. 3 players have less that 10BBs. Before the cards were dealt for this hand, I’m expecting the BB (Villain2 with 8BBs) to be shoving almost any 2 cards (and based on play so far). I’m also thinking that Players 3 and 5 might do the same… I hold Ac Kc. My first thought is raise 3x but I know that the BB is probably going all in. I’m also thinking that the button is probably going to call (based on play so far), and I’m wondering about what Players 3 and 5 moves are going to be. My second thought, because of position, is to actually Fold. My third thought is AKs is too strong a hand not to play (and good opportunity to accumulate chips). So I raise 3x (also having thought about shoving all in). Action folds to the SB (Villain1) who calls as I expected. BB (Villain2) shoves all in as expected also. I know if call, Villain1 is also calling. So I go all in thinking that Villain1 will actually fold because of my tight table image so far. (At this point I did think that I should have shoved pre). Both players call. Cards turn over, and I’m thinking “okay, I’m ahead, great”. (72.4% equity pre-flop. Ran the numbers today). My question is, should I have gone All In pre-flop? I’m thinking yes. Thanks for you comments. PS: I’m at the fact that I was "rivered" not by one, but 2 players…lol
    Last edited by Niavlys29; Thu Mar 17, 2011, 03:32 AM.

  • #2
    it was the correct play... and you were extremely unlucky. you were a 96% fav going to river.... they had 2 outs.
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    • #3
      Played perfectly in my opinion. 2 outer on the river is just super unlucky...

      To be more specific, yes great reshove all-in preflop. Isolate the BB that went all-in. The SB had no business calling your all-in with anything other than QQ.
      Last edited by RockerguyAA; Thu Mar 17, 2011, 04:58 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by RockerguyAA View Post
        Played perfectly in my opinion. 2 outer on the river is just super unlucky...

        To be more specific, yes great reshove all-in preflop. Isolate the BB that went all-in. The SB had no business calling your all-in with anything other than QQ.
        agree...

        If the SB does not re-pop you up front, ther eis no reaosn to think he holds AA/KK, and if he does...oh well.

        the BB shove is de rigeur, and your iso play is JUST what you should do.

        Do not let the results bog you down, either the fact you LOST or the fact you see both opponents drawing to jsut 2 x single card outs...

        This COULD have been a bit ugly for you...

        1) the SB might have had a pp, and been ahead of you
        2) the BB may have also held AK, thus you have lost some of your "outs" in this "race" situation.

        Fact is though, you raised in EP and got flatted. You want someoone who has chips left OUT! OUT! OUT!!!!!! so you get to see all 5 cards vs the all in (with his wider range), and do not have to risk a dry pot bet causing you to FOLD short of the river. Or you want them In, but at a nicely STEEP PRICE versus your gr 1 hand....

        If this were the BUBBLE of this type of event, YES you might have folded without even calling the shove. But you are not on the bubble, and your stack (esp AFTER your properly sized raise to open) definately does NOT guarentee you a cash: so you NEED chips.

        I really do not see anything wrong with playing a gr. 1 hand here, in this manner...

        just bad luck.
        Double Bracelet Winner

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        • #5
          I agree on the reshove to isolate. The SB maybe felt like he had to go with it after calling the initial raise, but he stacked himself off in a horrlbe spot for him and was in fact completely dominated, so he made a huge error (regardless of what you actually held, KQ is never ahead here vs your range, he has a really easy fold to the initial raise tbh).

          I get what you're saying about shipping initially, this stack size is a bit awkward for it. Given your read of the villains behind you and the confidence you felt in someone getting out of line with a wide range, a nice alternate line here would be a limp/shove. You limp in, maybe pick up a limper or two, the blind shoves, now you reshove and iso him. Wouldn't make a standard play out of this in the 50/50's but on your stack size it's a nice fit.

          Dave
          Head Live Trainer
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          • #6
            Thanks for you comments guys. Much appreciated.

            Niavlys29

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            • #7
              ..With being 4th in chips middle position with the big stack calling your raise and not to mention the bigstack having his tourney not at risk will call with anything worth calling at all because he will still have chips to play with if he loses..So AKs is a drawing hand sooooo many hands beats this..So I think waiting for a better opportunty would have been the move.The raise was good but when the re-raise came from BB and bigstack in the SB calling your first raise I think Bigslick would have to be folded and live for another hand.

              But here is the question.. Are you fine with ending your tourney with AKs? If so doesnt matter what I or anybody else thinks or feels.I am just getting to the point that AK is not a good shoving hand pre-flop when you still have a reasonable amount of chips.
              Last edited by D&J257; Fri Mar 18, 2011, 02:54 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by D&J257 View Post
                ..With being 4th in chips middle position with the big stack calling your raise and not to mention the bigstack having his tourney not at risk will call with anything worth calling at all because he will still have chips to play with if he loses..So AKs is a drawing hand sooooo many hands beats this..So I think waiting for a better opportunty would have been the move.The raise was good but when the re-raise came from BB and bigstack in the SB calling your first raise I think Bigslick would have to be folded and live for another hand. But here is the question.. Are you fine with ending your tourney with AKs? If so doesnt matter what I or anybody else thinks or feels.I am just getting to the point that AK is not a good shoving hand pre-flop when you still have a reasonable amount of chips.
                It might be beneficial if you bolster your argument with the math. I look forward to seeing the support for your suggested course of action. umbup:
                Head Live Trainer
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