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6-Max Cash: Two Pair Vs. Suspicious Betting Pattern

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  • 6-Max Cash: Two Pair Vs. Suspicious Betting Pattern

    So, at the moment I'm trying the 10c/25c tables. Just testing the waters while I can afford it. Let's hope I make money, and don't lose it. Anyway, in this hand I was new to the table, against a Gold Star player (in the SB) who was at five other tables. I raised my button with a weakish king, and got flatted by the small blind. The flop gives me top pair, and the other two cards are a board underpair. I check behind on the flop, because I think that if I'm behind, I'm going to have to put money in on the turn or river to find out, and I don't want to bloat the pot now if I'm behind. Also, my opponent is unlikely to have hit, so I'm anticipating a raise/fold if I bet, which isn't good. Anyway, the flop goes check-check. The turn isn't really a dangerous card. It might have helped the villain, but probably not. He bets, and I call. Simple. Then the river comes, and it's another non-danger card. Again, I think I'm ahead, but the villain bets a second time. Here, I get suspicious (and take about 30 seconds to ponder). What would the villain be checking, then barreling twice with? A medium pair like 99 or JJ? Very possibly. But I don't see why the villain wouldn't give me credit for possibly having a king, and just check the river. A king makes sense, but in that case, I can't see a decent player calling preflop OOP with weaker than K9. Maybe if it was suited, but I'm not liking the kings I'm up against. The only other real option I can think of is trips, which makes perfect sense, and I'm losing to it. My cursor hovered over the call button for quite awhile (and I really wanted to call), but I folded. Was that good, or was it bad? I know I'm new to the $25 scene, so I don't know these players all that well yet, and I didn't feel as confident in my reasoning as I usually do, but I still think it was pretty solid, and that I made the +1 right choice. Please analyze away, and let me know what you think.

  • #2
    El Bumpo.

    Comment


    • #3
      The way the hand was played I don't think you can possibly really get a good feel of where you stand. Because your preflop raise was so small he could have anything. He could have a 6, A10, any K, or a medium pair. I doubt he has 1010, JJ, or QQ though, would expect a reraise preflop. Theres no way to know, kind of have to guess with the way the hand played out. I'm betting he had K10 or KJ, he could have been worried he was kicked on the flop. Then after you checked either the 10 improved his hand or he felt better about his J kicker. Equal chance he shows 56 or 67 though that is the problem...

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      • #4
        I don't think my open bet sizing had any effect on the hand. The fact that I was only flatted preflop had some significance, but I don't think the villain's range would have been much wider, if at all, because I bet small. Just my impression.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by PanickyPoker View Post
          I don't think my open bet sizing had any effect on the hand. The fact that I was only flatted preflop had some significance, but I don't think the villain's range would have been much wider, if at all, because I bet small. Just my impression.
          It makes a big difference. 67s is calling from SB every time with your roughly 2 x BB raise, but is folding every time to a 4 x BB raise. Same exact result for K10s and KJs. Thanks to implied odds they are easy calls out of position in SB for 2 x BB, but bad calls for 4 x BB. I'm not saying you should have raised 4 x BB, just trying to make the point that your preflop raise size will effect their calling range.

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          • #6
            ??

            Well, I dont think i am folding there- and this is why- You hit your top - great flop for you- im hardly ever putting villain on a 6 there- he flat called your c-bet, and then "donk" bet into you on the turn, makes me believe he was floating the flop- with intention of stealing the pot on the river if its a blank- and it was- probably putting you on AQ AJ or Ax s-- my point being here- at a 6- max table- if i open a pot with K9- and hit my top on a pretty safe board- i believe i have the best hand- most of the time- add into that he gave you 2.6-1 to call that river-- ima calling- if he has the 6, so be it- you have info--

            P.S- as to the ?? of knowing where you are at in the hand-by flatting his "donk" turn bet- you showed huge weakness-imo-- perhaps you should have raised there- if he repops you- maybe then you can lay it down--

            Comment


            • #7
              To clarify, I did not c-bet. I checked the flop.

              By checking the flop, I may have shown weakness. But I do not think calling the turn bet was weak. I should have shown enough strength to get the guy to slow down on the river if he didn't have it (especially if he was on six tables at once; multitablers tend to be straightforward).

              Raising the turn would have been an interesting idea. It's worth thinking about. It's not the line I usually take (because I like getting value out of both the turn and river when I can), but in this case, where I only wanted to get one more bet out of the guy on the turn, it would have worked. I suppose if he 4bet me, then I've got my answer about whether or not I'm ahead. But it does cost me more money than the way I played, which isn't good. It's an interesting idea, thanks monk.

              Comment


              • #8
                ??

                srry - i dnt notice the check- so my ?? is why not c-bet-? you are giving him a free card- and you do have kiker issues-- and yw--monk..

                ps- if i were the villain- and you checked that flop- i donk bet into you on the turn - and you repop me- well then i thinkin u sloplayed the trip 6 and i givin up my K- if i had 1-- i still believe you got robbed here tho--lolo

                pss- i love this hand-- think about this also- why is he betting the river- you called a pot sized turn bet- so obv. you have a piece of that board- there is no draw u could be floating- and ure not calling hopin to hit an ace- so again if i him- ima checkin that river- if i have the 6- and raisin your river bet- only way he takes that pot if he got air is to bet at it- now i am sure you got robbed- !!-- jmo-- gl monk..
                Last edited by monkeyskunk4; Sat Mar 12, 2011, 07:38 PM. Reason: ps

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                • #9
                  I didn't bet the flop because I don't think it would have accomplished anything. If I bet the flop, he might have folded if he had nothing, which means I would have picked up the pot and nothing more. Since I have a high pair and the board was dry, I wasn't afraid of being outdrawn on the turn. If the villain had a piece of the board, or even if they wanted to run a bluff, I would have had no defense if they reraised my c-bet. I would have had to fold because my hand strength would not have been able to stand up to an over-the-top raise.

                  The check was designed to keep the pot small, while giving the villain a chance to make a mistake. I figured they might have been robbing me on the turn, which is why I called, but I don't think they would have tried robbing me twice. Of course, I might be wrong there. It's also very possible they had a weaker hand than mine. I don't think that I can justify saying that I was ahead of the villain's range though, so if I did call, it would have been a curiosity call, and nothing more.

                  Is Dave around? I'd really like to know what he thinks. I'm sure he runs into scenarios like this all the time.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ??

                    i really dont get the plan here- sounds like you are tryin to trap- by not c-betting- the flop- board is very dry- turn brick- river brick- unless u put him on exactly K 10-- and if u can do that - well are u single??-

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I suppose I am trapping to some degree. But, I think betting the flop here would be weak, since my hand isn't really strong, so if the villain picks this one hand to not believe my c-bet (which is conceivable; the board is dry), then I can't call a raise. I'm under-repping my hand to get a bet on the turn (I want the guy to try and rob me if he has nothing), because if I bet the flop, I'm repping a hand, and either the guy's going to fold (in which case I don't get the extra bet), or he'll likely raise (in which case I get nothing). I don't see the guy calling the flop very often, unless he's a bit stationy.

                      I didn't put the guy on KT, but the river barrel mad me think that the guy had two pair+. Probably better than KT. I ranged the guy, and figured that I was more likely than not to be behind, because someone robbing me would have bet the turn, then checked the river (unless they caught something). At least, that's my belief.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If you call the turn you must also call the river when the river card is unlikely to have changed the outcome (does not complete any draw, is not an over card). Why did you call the turn if you plan to fold to a normal size river bet on a relative blank? Either play at as a blind steal that failed (fold on the turn), or play as a hand where you are inducing bluffs or value bets from weaker holdings (like mid pocket pairs). Calling the turn and folding the river is mixing the two, and that is not winning poker.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So you're saying that you make a habit of double-barrel bluffing the pre-flop raiser, D? I've never seen that before (that I remember) from a good player. This guy was 6-tabling and a Gold Star, so I feel safe in making the assumption that he's decent. Why would he barrel twice if I'm supposed to call the river if I have a hand? I don't understand why he would bluff into me that much. I'm never folding the flop in this scenario, for obvious reasons. I do not believe that checking the flop should set my plan for the rest of the hand in stone. Calling the river makes sense if he's stealing, but stealing doesn't make sense to me.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by PanickyPoker View Post
                            So you're saying that you make a habit of double-barrel bluffing the pre-flop raiser, D? I've never seen that before (that I remember) from a good player. This guy was 6-tabling and a Gold Star, so I feel safe in making the assumption that he's decent. Why would he barrel twice if I'm supposed to call the river if I have a hand? I don't understand why he would bluff into me that much. I'm never folding the flop in this scenario, for obvious reasons. I do not believe that checking the flop should set my plan for the rest of the hand in stone. Calling the river makes sense if he's stealing, but stealing doesn't make sense to me.
                            LOL man you are way too defensive. You ask for peoples input so we gave it. We ar just telling you our thoughts about the hand, no one is attacking you. Leviathan made a good point and nobodoy said anything about anyone bluffing. If the villian was bluffing has nothing to do with the point he was making.

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                            • #15
                              I'm not trying to be defensive, and I apologize if my comments are coming across as overly aggressive (although come to think of it, I've had three hands analyzed today in one way or another, all of which received generally bad reviews, and I just got off of being slandered by multiple players about my ROI [which is negative, to be fair], so I admit I'm a little tilted right now).

                              D did say that if I interpreted the turn bet as a steal, that I'm essentially not allowed to change my mind, though. And I think that there is flawed logic in that. I'm trying to understand the how's and why's of my less-than-good plays, and in this case, I still don't.

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