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defending the big blind

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  • defending the big blind

    biggish stack open min raises the cutoff, i have no particular read and decide to defend with a weak suited king. was the flat call ok? how about the check raise on the flop? should i have turned my hand into a bluff on the river?

    PokerStars Game #58126790448: Tournament #367147117, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2011/02/22 20:50:37 ET
    Table '367147117 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
    Seat 1: Cool Breezin (2580 in chips)
    Seat 2: steppy117 (2045 in chips)
    Seat 3: jpdnevermind (280 in chips)
    Seat 4: Jimmy Trap (1910 in chips)
    Seat 5: craftycarrot (1395 in chips)
    Seat 6: cork726 (2935 in chips)
    Seat 7: blueMarina (5675 in chips)
    Seat 8: tanxzero (1045 in chips)
    Seat 9: CodigoB (1425 in chips) is sitting out
    jpdnevermind: posts small blind 25
    Jimmy Trap: posts big blind 50
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Jimmy Trap [Kc 5c]
    craftycarrot: folds
    cork726: folds
    blueMarina: folds
    tanxzero: folds
    CodigoB: folds
    Cool Breezin: raises 50 to 100
    steppy117: folds
    jpdnevermind: folds
    Jimmy Trap: calls 50
    *** FLOP *** [4d Kd 6d]
    Jimmy Trap: checks
    Cool Breezin: bets 150
    Jimmy Trap: raises 200 to 350
    Cool Breezin: calls 200
    *** TURN *** [4d Kd 6d] [Ah]
    Jimmy Trap: checks
    Cool Breezin: checks
    *** RIVER *** [4d Kd 6d Ah] [Qc]
    Jimmy Trap: checks
    Cool Breezin: checks
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    Jimmy Trap: shows [Kc 5c] (a pair of Kings)
    Cool Breezin: shows [As Tc] (a pair of Aces)
    Cool Breezin collected 925 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 925 | Rake 0
    Board [4d Kd 6d Ah Qc]
    Seat 1: Cool Breezin showed [As Tc] and won (925) with a pair of Aces
    Seat 2: steppy117 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: jpdnevermind (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 4: Jimmy Trap (big blind) showed [Kc 5c] and lost with a pair of Kings
    Seat 5: craftycarrot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: cork726 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: blueMarina folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: tanxzero folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: CodigoB folded before Flop (didn't bet)

  • #2
    In the 3rd level, first off, you have to remember that alot of the lower players are still in and can be playing anything at anytime.

    IMO you've got to bet on the flop, if nothing else, to see where you're at. If you check, with 3 diamonds on board, someone can draw at flush for free.
    When they call your raise on the flop, you have to put them on a high diamond or A probably with lower pair or a K. If they have a K, you're more than likely outkicked.

    With the A on the turn, you're now behind basically any A or K (2 of the 3 scenarios). The only thing you can now beat is a bluff, so like the check and would not bet.

    River, the only thing you can beat is a bluff and a bluff isn't going to just call a bet on the flop, they'll raise it (or they'll bet every street).

    IMO, the only thing you can do on the river is check it down or fold.

    Sometimes, you just have to realize you have the worst hand and walk away from it. If you try to force a bluff early in a tourney, especially in a freeroll, that's a recipe for disaster.
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    • #3
      hear what ur saying but it looks much stronger not 2 donk when u think ur opponent will cbet and my opponent did seem 2 b a believer that i might have a non nut flush by his passive play thereafter. despite it being a freeroll, i don't think he was a crazy bad player, well maybe calling the flop raise was bad.

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      • #4
        they definitely should have bet on the river.. that check by them doesn't make sense to me. I'd have put out a bet on turn after hitting top pair if I were them too.
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        • #5
          ageed

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Jimmy Trap View Post
            hear what ur saying but it looks much stronger not 2 donk when u think ur opponent will cbet and my opponent did seem 2 b a believer that i might have a non nut flush by his passive play thereafter. despite it being a freeroll, i don't think he was a crazy bad player, well maybe calling the flop raise was bad.
            I'm curious...

            Why is the Ace a bigger "threat" to you than the all diamond board is to your top pair/weak kicker and no draw?

            Let's look...

            You call a min raise out of position with a weak hand. Ok, this isn't "great", especially since you start the hand with only 38 BB, but there are far WORSE things you could do. If this guy is a major Station, a top pair hand may be "enough" to win a decent sized pot, so implied odds may be there to call this min bet from the BB.

            Flop comes and gives you top pair, but there is an all diamond board. You are out of position. You check, the opponent bets 2/3rds the pot on a highly coordinated board. You then check/raise for 200 more into the pot of 375, thus laying your opponent 2.875 to 1 to call. Why?

            You state you have no particular "read" on the opponent here, but you DO have "information"; this is the fact he can bet 2/3rds the pot on continuation into this highly coordinated board.

            To determine whether or not your check/raise amount is "right", it is incumbenant upon YOU to know what it is you are trying to accomplish with this bet...

            1) You are Value betting because you are pretty sure you have the best hand.

            If this is the case, then your bet is pretty good. It is well sized to avoid getting you too "married" to the pot in case the opponent makes a big re-raise, and the fact you check/raise does tend to allow you to represent a wider range of "hits" on this flop.

            The PROBLEM in this hand, if this is the case, lies in the fact you take the betting "lead" away from the opponent with the check raise, but then check the Ace turn. for many of the same reaosns a pre-flop raiser makes a continuation bet, a check/raiser on the flop is pretty much obligated to make a turn continuation bet.

            2) You are "bluffing" a weak hand that you really do not think is best, and want the opponent to FOLD.

            If this is the case, your check/raise is far too small to be effective. You lay almost 3 to 1 for a call, so a person with an Ad, especially if that person is not a very GOOD player, if probably going to call you. If your hand were STRONGER, say a set, or top 2 pair, you may not mind this call at all by a 1 diamond draw, but a K/weak top pair hand WITHOUT a diamond is far too weak to really want someone coming along TOO cheaply. There are simply too many BETTER hands than
            K5o with no diamond (K6/7/8/9/10/J, with or without 1 diamond for example) that you are possibly getting to fold on this board with a bigger bet, for you to fool around with "getting value" in.

            It is simply a matter of if you are going to "bluff" with this hand, you really have to make your check/raise more along the line of 450 to 500.

            So...

            I think your major "mistake" in this hand was a failure to have a future PLAN for how you were going to approach your bet line here.

            You START in one direction (betting for value), then you FAIL to recognize that a 2nd small-ish bet when that Ace pops could easily represent a 2nd pair "hit", a spike for your A hi FLUSH draw bet, or is not "scary" in the least since you "already" have the flush. You took the betting lead, then immediately gave it up, and the "problem" with this is that even if you WERE still ahead with your K, you just gave 2 FREE CARDS to any draw.

            OR...

            You failed to bet strongly enough on your "bluff" to really give someone with a decent flush draw a chance to fold.

            Realistically though, since you do have some "confusion" in your betting line consistency, you DID end up doing the absolute BEST thing you could have done: you checked it down.

            (I say this is "good" insofar as I am assuming that you would have check/FOLDED to any bet from the turn, on...)

            Under no circumstance would you have been "good" trying to turn this hand into a bluff on the river. Out of position you do not have enough definition of your hand to realistic expect a bluff to work after a turn check, not without a good solid READ that says it might work.
            Last edited by JDean; Thu Feb 24, 2011, 01:36 AM.
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            • #7
              very helpful, thanks.

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              • #8
                I agree. Your hand looks like a probable FD the way you played it so I think you can and should turn it into a bluff if the 4th diamond comes, but not on an offsuit Q river. Way too likely the villain has an ace, AK, or KQ and won't fold (like they might if the 4th diamond comes and they don't have one).

                Preflop I would 3b or fold, rather than call out of position with K5s on a 38 bb stack. Without reads beyond it being early in a PSO freeroll, fold.

                Also I'm not entirely sure he should bet the river. Granted it should look to him like he has the best hand when checked to him twice, but what worse hands are in our range that can call? Thoughts??? If he can't get called by worse, then there's no value in risking a river bet.
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by TheLangolier View Post
                  I agree. Your hand looks like a probable FD the way you played it so I think you can and should turn it into a bluff if the 4th diamond comes, but not on an offsuit Q river. Way too likely the villain has an ace, AK, or KQ and won't fold (like they might if the 4th diamond comes and they don't have one).

                  Preflop I would 3b or fold, rather than call out of position with K5s on a 38 bb stack. Without reads beyond it being early in a PSO freeroll, fold.

                  Also I'm not entirely sure he should bet the river. Granted it should look to him like he has the best hand when checked to him twice, but what worse hands are in our range that can call? Thoughts??? If he can't get called by worse, then there's no value in risking a river bet.
                  regarding playing K5o from the Bb, I entirely agree...

                  "defending" your BB with a call on a cheese hand is not very good "defense", because you only have 1 way to win: by floping the best hand.

                  If your opponent is loose enough that a CALL is ok, then a standard RAISE is probably ok too.

                  I skimmed over that by just saying there are "worse things you could do" (like shove, re-raise like 5 or 6x, etc), but I was trying to imply exactly what Dave said: this hand (K5o) does not contain enough value to be worth a flat call, and then being forced to play the rest of the way out of position very well.
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                  • #10
                    one small point of fact. u keep calling it K5 o, it's K5s.

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