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Early raising in Omaha

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  • Early raising in Omaha

    Hi all!

    When in the world is a raise appropriate in Omaha pre-flop and post-flop (not turn and river). Everything seems to turn on such a dime in this game that I have trouble thinking that any hand is worthy of a preflop raise and things don't become all that much clearer right after the flop.

    thx!

    hockeyrob

  • #2
    the site offers 4 different types of omaha and in all 4 different games different hands are raising hands.


    but when played properly big hands should be raised preflop and on the flop.

    by big hands i DONT mean AA94 rainbow
    hands like AAKKds AAJTds AKQJds KQJTds KKJTds with these hands you know where you are on the flop if the flop comes rags and a loose player comes on betting you can still get away cheap.


    post flop top pair and 2 pair hands are foldable hands unless you have nut draws and redraws.

    Comment


    • #3
      I was playing some baby buy-in PLO-Hi online this weekend, and had one of my first "aha!" poker experiences.

      I had called a pot raise preflop with medium connected cards, double-suited. The flop gave me, as I recall, 2 pair, as well as a straight draw. I called another pot bet, as well as on the turn. Since no high cards had come up, even on the river, it dawned on me that, from the betting pattern, I was up against AA or KK, and probably nothing more. Anyway, I raised all in with my unimproved 2 pair to see that I was right, and took the pot, much to the dismay of my opponent.

      I'm extremely new to Omaha, but I've already noticed that many players will only raise with big pairs, and that this can be a perfect tell. Thus, isn't it often wise to conceal big pairs in Omaha, and look for a favorable flop? Comments encouraged - thanx!


      Dan
      "Windlord"

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Early raising in Omaha

        Originally posted by hockeyrob
        When in the world is a raise appropriate in Omaha pre-flop and post-flop (not turn and river). Everything seems to turn on such a dime in this game that I have trouble thinking that any hand is worthy of a preflop raise and things don't become all that much clearer right after the flop.
        Many Omaha/8 players will raise with four good big cards, as well as four prime cards (ace through five). Omaha/8 is very different than hold'em in that regardless of the flop, most of the time a pocket pair of preflop aces is still the best hand on the flop. But in Omaha/8, if you raise with big cards or babies and the flop comes in the opposite direction your cards have beenr endered completely worthless and must be released. But if the flop hits you, you've probably got a winner and more money in the pot to shoot for -- and some of that money will be dead money too.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Windlord
          I was playing some baby buy-in PLO-Hi online this weekend, and had one of my first "aha!" poker experiences.

          I had called a pot raise preflop with medium connected cards, double-suited. The flop gave me, as I recall, 2 pair, as well as a straight draw. I called another pot bet, as well as on the turn. Since no high cards had come up, even on the river, it dawned on me that, from the betting pattern, I was up against AA or KK, and probably nothing more. Anyway, I raised all in with my unimproved 2 pair to see that I was right, and took the pot, much to the dismay of my opponent.
          "Windlord"
          Amen Dan ! Excellent point and one that TJ Cloutier also makes in his Omaha book (I think this means that pretty soon you'll be as good as TJ :wink: ). If you can recognise that certain players will raise it up preflop with big pairs and then keep betting moderate amounts against ragged flops, then your 2-pair is likely to be good. Of course if the 'spare' board card pairs on the river you're suddenly in trouble. And you gotta know the players' tendencies ...

          The moral of the story might be - don't get too predictable. Raise also on big connected hands like some of those those that Ironside mentioned. Maybe put in a sub-pot 'sweetener' sometimes when you have 'bad' aces like AA48 once-suited so that if you do hit, the pot is big enough for a fat raise to drive out the drawing hands, etc.

          Fascinating game, and easily my favourite.

          Dan, please contact Chris 'BlackAces' if this Omaha business gets obsessive He might recommend vast doses of alcohol or Prozac as a cure...

          cheers

          Comment


          • #6
            i raised once in omaha preflop and got yelled at by a certain women. But i can't see raiseing with much in omaha. IMHO you aren't going to knock many out with a raise and too many things happen after the flop so a raise is stupid waste of money.

            AA23 ds 0/8
            any 4 Big cards (pictures)

            I would say the only instances


            AA92 in omaha hi, no good

            Comment


            • #7
              From a post I made in another forum:

              "I think playing the players is VERY important in PLO, in that if you know what players will raise with or will call raises with, you're in a much better position on the flop than your opponent. If you know that an opponent will raise only with suited aces or kings, you can, among other things:

              a) play hands that will play well against these hands (such as middle connectors) -- for a reasonable price -- while avoiding those that will not (mostly paint underpairs and AK-anchored hands), and

              b) take a flop that you know did not hit your opponent (something like 953 rainbow) and force your opponent to lay his hand down on the flop, if he is prone to do so (one place where you can usually run a bluff successfully, especially if you're marked as someone who will play a lot of different types of hands).

              And, of course, if you yourself only raise with these hands, you can have the same done to you. That's why I think it helps to raise with a wide variety of hands, so you can't be marked by your opponents. You, of course, do NOT want to play against opponents who take this style, unless they play very poorly postflop."

              Now, this generally applies to ring games, but it can also apply early in tournaments. And of course, if you sense that the table is tight later in a tournament, raising more liberally preflop will pay off there as well.

              After the flop, you have to use your judgement. You may get into a hand where an overpair may be good, or where a flopped straight should be thrown away. The key postflop is to figure out what your opponents could have, and figure out your chances of either a) retaining the best hand, or b) making a bigger hand.

              For instance, if the flop is J:c:8:c:7:h:, and you're facing a bet and a raise holding T:s:9:h:6:d:6:s:, you may not want to continue with this hand at all. Someone MAY be holding another T9, in which case you're putting in money hoping to get 1/2 the pot, but more likely you're up against a set (or two) and a flush draw, in which case you need to fold, because you're likely going to be putting in all your money, and you'll be doing it as an underdog. This is a rare situation in holdem, but not nearly as rare in Omaha, and this is where beginning players will get caught, because the idea of laying down the nuts at any point is impossible to comprehend.

              You want to put in a raise on the flop when you have either a very good hand (top set), or a very good draw (13-way straight draw with flush draw, for example, or 17- or even 20-way straight draws with no flush possibilities). You can bet your biggest draws very strongly, because you're a favourite to improve into the best hand. Hands that can be dangerous to raise with include bottom or even middle set, two pair (ESPECIALLY top and bottom or bottom 2), or the aforementioned made straight with no redraws. Again, it depends on the action to that point.

              On the turn, you CAN raise with the nuts, because there's only one card to come instead of two. With a big draw, you want to get in all your money on the flop, where you're a favourite, because you want to be able to see both cards without the risk of being bet off the hand on the turn. Thus, with hands without redraws, you want to make sure the money goes in on the turn if a brick comes off, where YOU'RE a favourite. If it looks like someone made their draw, you can escape without having committed much money.

              Chris

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              • #8
                Crash

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                • #9
                  Thank you to all who posted in this thread! One of the best discussions of vital o/8 and omaha hi concepts I have read!

                  EVERY beginner would do well to print this thread and memorize it. Everyone else should throw away what they thought they knew about the game, print this thread and memorize it!

                  I am barely above beginner in o/8, but have made it to the bubble table in each of the last three tournaments by basically playing the way those above described. I am very tight, and it seems to work in getting me to the last 3 tables because planety of players will pay off your premium hands in o/8, and then just fold your losers (both preflop, and hands that get rendered worthless {to quote Mr. Krieger} after the flop).

                  My question: any suggestions on how play changes in o/8 when the money is very shallow and we are down to the final few tables. Short of picking a hand and keep betting, I am at a lost. I fear I am dumping to many hands postflop if the flop doesn't hit me perfectly.

                  Any suggestion?

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                  • #10
                    Crash

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                    • #11
                      Great, great stuff apryl....keep it coming!!!

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                      • #12
                        I love you Apryllshowers. 8O

                        I still have hope that you are really a woman.

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                        • #13
                          Thanks Apryll!

                          It is advice like the above that "pros" should be giving to the school!

                          It is brilliant! I look at your answer, think back on the hands being played at the last 3 tables, and your sage wisdom is solid gold! Played my last o/8 at Five Diamond Classic and went out around 30. I had tw0 big high hands (all cards over 10, pairs kings once, pair queens once) that I dumped and I would have scooped both times! Took you laying it out logically to pound home what I saw with my own eyes. I was grossly undervaluing my increase in EV with high hands based on the decrease in players in the pot!

                          I had myself stuck in a construct of 4 or 5 people taking flops early in o/8 tourneys (don't kid yourself, it happens even in buy-ins of $1000 and higher), and still having 3 or 4 in the middle stages. Completely missed the idea that with hands generally playing heads up at final 3 tables, high hands were going WAY up in value!
                          I am not too proud to say that of course I was not "getting lucky" at the end of tourneys, because my strategy was completely wrong at the end!

                          All right, Apryll. I know I can get to the final 25% in an o/8 tourney -- have done it in last 4 live ones I entered - but I am going to use your strategy in the future for late tourney play.

                          My pledge to you -- I cash in one of my next 3 o/8 tourneys -- I will pay for your next year at PSO personally! I am hoping to play at the LA poker Classic, and will definitely be at the WSOP.

                          This made my day!

                          Thanks tons,

                          Tim

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Lol, thanks Tim. How about teaching me how to make money in real estate so I can quit being a lawyer? I'll be your poker consultant for life if you can swing that!

                            See what happens when someone asks a good question AND PSO fixes my software problem. Now if I still had no access to the software, response would have been something like "get it in and pray."

                            As an aside-- Noodles, I am a guy. Sorry.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Apryll,

                              Glad to see you posting back in this manner - this is what made you one of the truly wonderful assets of PSO.

                              Aaron

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