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Rng the truth

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  • Rng the truth

    I had a friend tell me that playing on-line is playing in a rigged game THAT THE RNG IS NOT RANDOM. I am not a big computer guy and would like to know if what these people are accusing on line poker sites of is even possible.I find it hard to believe that even if possible that a site as big as poker stars would have a program written so that towards the end of a tournament the player with the most chips will win 90 percent of the time to get the game over quicker or that after you withdrew money it is setup so you lose way more than before you took money out especially at the micro levels. He sent me to a link that had a whole bunch of people saying that they could not win a hand etc etc. That they were constantly being burned on the river to russian players (I figure you lose to Russian players more than others is because there are more Russians playing than other countries) The other thing I noticed was most of the people bitching were the micro level players and AGAIN I FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT A SITE AS BIG AS POKER STARS WOULD TARGET ANYONE BUT ESPECIALLY PLAYERS WITH 25 DOLLARS ON ACCOUNT.can someone explain if this is even possible. THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR ANY HELP

  • #2
    i dont think pokerstars will risk their brand to rig anything... but in saying that you can not create a total randomness in a written piece of software, the program will have to follow directions as such...

    Comment


    • #3
      There's an old saying that bad workmen always blame the tools. The same applies in online poker, losing poker players always blame the software. Over the years there has been numerous threads here about the RNG being rigged. NONE of these threads ever were found to have any merit what so ever. The truth is that the Random Number Generator is exactly that, RANDOM. If players were to spend time studying the security of online poker sites they would eventually come to the conclusion the the one site that takes it's security most seriously would be PokerStars. Here's a link to more info on the RNG used by PokerStars: http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng/ Cheers, Raiser umbup:

      Comment


      • #4
        but it cant be totally random if its possible to predict the next cards to come, if you were to know a couple of factors.... but in saying that its as random as you can make something that is written by someone..... but in overall online poker isn't rigged, ive seen many unbelievable occurrences live.... lets face it its just poker... and if these players put more time in finding ways to beat it than trying to find ways to make excuses why they arnt winning, they may actualy work out a way to beat the game

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by royalraise85;517697

          [COLOR="black"
          The truth is that the Random Number Generator is exactly that, RANDOM.
          [/COLOR]
          :
          Im pretty sure computers don't even understand the meaning random, im not very good with computers so i have no idea what im on about but i have read that computers use PRNG and that the algorithm twists all the numbers to make the numbers look random but at some point the algorithm will be exhausted and then the sequence will repeat meaning its not random.

          Still i doubt poker is rigged and even if some genius knew what that sequence was how could he use that to beat poker unless he created a program that knows exactly what cards are going to roll off preflop flop turn and river.

          Seems to me like there would be very few people capable of pulling that off in the world if any.

          Comment


          • #6
            Mike, a computer's RNG algorithm works on a "list" system, but I believe Pokerstars uses "natural" phenomena to seed the RNG generator.

            e.g. It's possible to use the speed of the breeze outside to randomly choose a particular place in the "list" to pick a number from. Since the speed of the wind is unpredictable and random, the number generation is also unpredictable.
            At one point, I believe the seed that Stars used was the cursor co-ordinates on random computer of random people in the Stars office, which is obviously changing on a second-by-second basis. Since it's impossible to predict exactly where a bunch of random people place their mouse-pointers, it's impossible to know where the RNG will look in its "list" of random numbers.
            Bracelet Winner

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by billnmex View Post
              I had a friend tell me that playing on-line is playing in a rigged game THAT THE RNG IS NOT RANDOM. I am not a big computer guy and would like to know if what these people are accusing on line poker sites of is even possible.I find it hard to believe that even if possible that a site as big as poker stars would have a program written so that towards the end of a tournament the player with the most chips will win 90 percent of the time to get the game over quicker or that after you withdrew money it is setup so you lose way more than before you took money out especially at the micro levels. He sent me to a link that had a whole bunch of people saying that they could not win a hand etc etc. That they were constantly being burned on the river to russian players (I figure you lose to Russian players more than others is because there are more Russians playing than other countries) The other thing I noticed was most of the people bitching were the micro level players and AGAIN I FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT A SITE AS BIG AS POKER STARS WOULD TARGET ANYONE BUT ESPECIALLY PLAYERS WITH 25 DOLLARS ON ACCOUNT.can someone explain if this is even possible. THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR ANY HELP
              1. The Basic question seems to be 'Can online poker be rigged' ? and the simple answer to this is YES. 2. The question should be (a) Is online poker rigged ? or (b) Is PokerStars rigged ? The answer to this is (a) Possibly and (b) NO Let me elaborate... 1, Online Poker could be rigged by anyone competent enough to write a 'modern Computer programme', I say modern because programming nowadays is a lot more complicated than it used to be. I wrote a post back in August 2010, on the 12th I think, exactly on this subject. ...2, The debates went on for a number of days and quite a few different threads and most people agreed that for an Honest site e.g. PokerStars, it would be the grossest incompetence and stupidity to rig the site in any way shape or form. The consequences for doing so would be corporate suicide, with possible criminal proceedings being brought against them. I don't know how to post links to previous threads, but you can review back to August 12th 2010, and scroll forward to see for yourself the numerous posts on this very subject. I kept a copy on my HD and reproduce it here ...... Have you noticed that when you play against some players, it doesn't seem to matter what you are holding, they ALWAYS win. Are the games 'Rigged', The TRUTH revealed. The following was given to me in strictest confidence, by an extremely reliable source. I have been sworn, upon pain of death, to keep secret the Identity of the source and I will deny, until the end of time if asked, any knowledge whatsoever of the Identity of the source, or the contents of this missive. So I am typing this with my eyes closed and with 'Heavy Metal' music blaring through my earphones, so I can truthfully say I don't know what is written here. I am just a conduit, through which the truth is revealed. ONLINE POKER: The games are rigged and that's a fact. But not how most people have imagined. The sites use a Random card selection process for the 'Hole Cards', and it truly is random. But here is where the rigging comes in. It is divided into 'Two' separate parts. Separate but connected. And this is how it works:- Part One: The game programme lists all participants until registration is closed. This list can be viewed in the tourney lobby. Each player is assigned a letter (a through i) for a nine seater tourney, (a through f) for a six seater. etc. On each table the 'Random' hole cards are dealt out. Then, and this is where the uncertainty factor plays a big part, depending on which players fold pre-flop, depends which player is programmed to win. For instance, the hole cards are dealt out thusly: Player designated 'a' 7c2d : player 'b' Ts 8h : player 'c' As Ks : player 'd' Js Jd : player 'e' 5d 9c : player 'f' Qs 3d : player 'g' Kc 8s : player 'h' Qd 6c and player 'i' Jh Th. players 'a','b','c','d',and 'i' are still in pre-flop, the betting was player 'd' utg raises 3XBB call call fold fold fold fold call call (Player 'a' is BB and an any two cards player) players 'b' and 'd' are also speculative players,player 'c' is a cautious player and player 'i' is SB and usually a bit tight. Now the order to win each hand is always 'a' first, 'i' last. So because 'a' is still in the hand the flop must help player 'a', and the selected winning hand must be for 'a'. The winning hand has been selected to be quad two's. The programme now goes to the next decision choice (and this again is done randomly) and the decision is in three parts, 1. give 'a' the final winning hand on the flop; 2. give 'a' two of the winning hand cards on the flop or 3. give 'a' one of the cards of the final winning hand on the flop. Let us assume the programme selects option 3. Because only one of the predetermined cards will be dealt in the flop, there is a possibility that 'a' will fold after the flop and therefore a subroutine runs which selects a second card for the flop which will assist the next player in line (in this case 'b'). The flop now comes 2h 9h Jc. Everyone has caught a little at least. Player 'a' a pair of two's ; player 'b' an open ended straight draw ; player 'c' Ace King high with an outside chance runner runner straight draw ; player 'd' trip Jacks and player 'i' a pair of jacks, a flush draw, the possibility of a runner runner straight flush draw and a runner runner straight draw. First to act is player 'i' SB, he is mesmerised by all the hearts and the possibilities towards him winning that he bets 5XBB, BB player 'a' who is destined to win this hand sees that he only has a pair of deuces and decides, even though he is an any two cards player, that 5XBB is a little too much and opts to fold. Player 'd' utg has trip Jacks and elects to call, next player 'c' sees an Ace high and he too opts to fold, player 'b' calls with his open ended straight draw. Because player 'a' is no longer involved in the hand, player 'b' becomes the designated winner. However the previously selected winning hand of quad two's, is no longer valid as this would leave player 'b' behind player 'd' with only Jack high as opposed to trip Jacks. Therefore a new winning hand must be formulated. A second subroutine now recalculates a winning hand with player 'b' as the beneficiary. Queen high straight is chosen. The programme now has the choice again of when to deal the winning card, option 1. on the Turn, option 2. on the River. Let us assume the programme selects option 2. The Turn card is 8c. Everyone again has a little something. First to act, player 'i', still has a pair of Jacks and a flush draw but now also has a straight draw, and decides to bet 5XBB, player 'd' has trip Jacks and sees that there is a possible straight and possible flush on the board and having played with these two other players for a while, believes that neither of them has hit yet and comes over the top with an all-in bet, in order to take the pot now rather than chance one or the other hitting on the River. Player 'b' now finds that he has a pair of eights and an open ended straight draw, but to call player 'd's bet would put him all in and decides to fold and wait for a better opportunity later. Player 'i' still believes that he will win with all the outs he has, and calling the all-in will not put him all-in so opts to call. Now player 'b' is no longer in the hand so the designated winner has to again be amended. Player 'c' is next in line, but he folded after the flop, so next is player 'd' who is in the hand and holding three of a kind Jacks. However, the previously decided winning hand of Queen high straight would give the win to player 'i' and not player 'd', so the sub routine now has to re-calculate a winning hand for player 'd'. Player 'd' is already holding a winning hand JJJ , so any card that is not a heart, a seven or a Queen, will give the win to player 'd'. The programme selects 2c. Player 'd' wins with a full house Jacks over Two's. On the face of it, it would appear that the best hand won with the winning player using acceptable tactics, with the best starting hand. Everyone says nice hand, well played, good game. Now let us go back to the beginning of the hand and player 'a' , as well as being an any two cards player is also a shove all player. The hand now plays like this:- Player 'd' under the gun bets 3XBB with his pair of Jacks, call, call, fold, fold, fold, fold, call, all-in. Player 'd' thinks his jacks good enough to call the all-in, and so calls, player 'c' also calls and is all-in, everyone else folds. The players cards are now exposed. On the board is Js Jd for player 'd' ; AKs for player 'c' and 7c 2d for player 'a'. Comments such as 'what a donk' and 'stupid idiot, deserves everything he gets' come from some of the other players and players 'd' and 'c' think the hand is a race between them. Same selection process as previous, i.e. winning hand, quad two's and one of the winning hand cards on the flop. Flop 2h 9h Jc. Player 'c' knows that, unless he hits a Queen and a Ten on the Turn and the River, his tourney is over. Player 'd' now thinks that he is so far in front that he can't possibly lose, and so do the other players and spectators. Turn comes 2s, player 'c' knows he is out and says 'Bye everyone, good game'. Player 'd' now has a full house Jacks over Two's and is mentally already raking in the chips because he 'can't possibly lose' as player 'a' only has three of a kind Deuces and even if the board pairs or a seven comes on the River player 'd' still wins. KERBLAM....WRONG....River is dealt 2c giving player 'a' Quad Two's and taking down the pot. This is when the shit hits the fan, and the comments come thick and fast. 'What a suck out', 'stupid donk play', 'bad beat', etc. etc. etc. No use ranting and raving that the site is fixed, it IS fixed but not in the way most people mean. It is fixed 'RANDOMLY'. If player 'a' having knocked out sufficient opponents that his table is closed, is moved to another table, or is 'Randomly' moved to fill up spaces, then his designation of 'a' no longer pertains, and he is re designated to the first missing letter at that table. If this happens to be 'a', because the player who was 'a', was 'Randomly' re-assigned, then all well and good, he will continue his winning streak. But if his re designation is 'i' he will suddenly find himself on a massive losing streak. This is the major reason why 'Donks' rarely make it to the final stages, they continue to play as if they are designated 'a' even when re-designated to less favourable letters. This situation remains until Registration is closed. Part Two, Stage One: The programme 'randomly' numbers all participants regardless of whether they have already been eliminated. If the participant numbered 1 has already been eliminated then the participant numbered 2 is selected. If this person has also been eliminated, then the process is repeated until the first number not eliminated is reached. This person is now designated winner. Now we get to the subtle part. The programme now interacts with another sub routine that only allows 75% of hands as 'Winners' for the player designated winner. One in four hands now dealt to the designated player is a losing hand, so if the designated player is a 'shove it all in on any two cards' type of player, then there is a good chance he will be eliminated before the Final Table, as he may overplay a 'losing' hand when one of the others has 'Randomly' received a Monster e.g. AA. thus giving the appearance of 'Skill' persevering. Even though one in four hands is designated 'loser', this does not necessarily mean that the designated player WILL lose the hand. The hand will be played totally randomly, from start to finish, so the designated player could still win the hand. On each individual table the lowest numbered player is designated the winner for that table, if that player is subsequently moved to another Table and there is a player with a lower number then he will no longer be the designated winner, as in the previous section where players were designated 'a' through 'i' (except he will not be assigned a new number). This too gives the appearance of 'Randomness' as those players will appear to be experiencing a run of good luck and then a run of bad luck, and if the player with a lower number is moved from that table they will then be on a new run of good luck, and the vast majority of people expect this kind of thing to happen in Poker. So everything appears to be 'Normal'. If the designated 'winner' player is an average to good player, then he will be more selective in the starting hands he will play. In this case, even though he has been allocated 75% he will not be playing all of the winning hands and will occasionally, because of the Random dealing of the Hole Cards, play some of the losing hands at least until after the flop. This again will disguise the fact that he is the pre-programmed winner. If the designated player goes all-in on any of the losing hands, he will be allowed to lose that hand, and if this puts him out of the tournament then the player next in sequence becomes the designated winner. This state of affairs continues until there has been 50% of the total entry eliminated from the tourney. Then stage two kicks in. Stage Two: The designated winner will only be allowed to lose if certain conditions are met, and these are: 1. If the player elects to sit out for the remainder of the tourney and the Blinds and Ante's force him all-in, then his hand will be folded and the next player in line will become the designated player. 2. If the player has NOT gone all-in, on a losing hand, pre flop, but DOES go all-in at a stage where it is impossible for him to receive the winning hand, then he will be eliminated. e.g. Designated Player holds Jh 7h and raises 3XBB all fold excepting BB who holds AhKh. (this is a designated losing hand) Flop comes 6h Qh 3h. Since it is now impossible for the designated player to win this hand, as he cannot, with any remaining combination of two cards, form a hand that is superior to his opponents. If he now goes all-in, either, he is given the win and the Table immediately shut down,(so last hand history cannot be checked) and all players re-assigned to other tables, or if there are insufficient places available at other tables to accommodate all remaining players and the table cannot be closed,he will be allowed to lose, and the next player in line becomes the designated player. In all other cases, if he has gone all-in and it is possible for the player to receive a winning hand, even though this hand was designated to be a loser, then the designated player will win. It is assumed by the programmers, that by this stage of the tourney, most of the shove all-in any two card type players, will have been eliminated. The programmers have also taken into consideration Human fallibility, so if the designated player declines to play hands, but is not 'sat out', and is forced all-in by the Blinds and Ante's, he will be given the winning hands until such time as he is no longer forced all-in. Stage Three: Heads up. In the heads up stage of the tourney, the designated player will be given 80% winning hands (100% if he elects to go all-in post flop even on a losing hand) It is assumed that by this stage no-one will try to bluff all-in on the Turn or River, with a hand that cannot possibly win, but in the unlikely event that this does occur, if the programme cannot find a combination of cards, still to come, to enable the designated player to win that hand, then the first time that this situation arises the opponents hand will be folded even though the player bets. (It is hoped that this will be viewed as a glitch or a 'miss touch' of the mouse by the losing player). If however this situation arises again then the designated player will be allowed to lose and his opponent win. 'Hole Cards' are still 'Randomly' distributed which enhances the appearance of 'Randomness', even though the designated player will win four out of every five hands, if he plays them all, it would still not appear too odd, as every player has experienced a time where everything seems to go right for one and wrong for the other, no matter what cards they hold. For example. The designated player, at heads up, only plays a hand if at least one of his 'Hole Cards' is Ten or above unless they are connecters 6+. He begins the session 2X the amount of chips as his opponent, and receives no cards higher than 9 and no connecters, except for the hands designated as losers, for a considerable period and is now down to just enough to cover the Big Blind and Ante at this point he is all-in and is not allowed to lose. This state will continue until chance grants him a run of 'Hole Cards' consisting of at least one card Ten or above, at which point he begins to accumulate chips and everyone congratulates him on a terrific recovery. And he goes on to win the tourney. End of Story. Or is it? What Man can construct, Man can take apart. What 'blockages' Man can create, Man can circumvent. Site owners have access to the Programme and in particular to a sub-subroutine, which allows authorised personnel to 'flag' individual 'clients' to either always have them entered into tourneys at designation 'i' (if that individual is on their 'Black list'), or at designation 'a', or anywhere in between, depending on their status viz-a-viz 'The Management'. Thus providing favoured clients a 'leg up the ladder' so to speak, and holding back or 'penalising' un favoured clientele. They have also the ability to change the part two numbering in favour of whosoever they choose. So if the 'Management' decide that a certain person has been of particular help to them, or has made a sufficiently large bribe, that person can be allocated 'a' in part one and '1' in part two, thus guaranteeing the win. Now don't forget, you didn't get this from me, I know absolutely nothing about it. Someone else must be using my account while I'm not here. This copied post is completely fictitious and only meant as a fun thing, but it was taken to be a serious thing by a few people. Hope you are able to go back and check previous debates on this subject. umbup:umbup: and I hope this helps at least a bit. Bill.
              3 Time Bracelet Winner


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              • #8
                no
                no no and no

                Grade b
                I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

                13 Time Bracelet Winner


                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bill Curran View Post
                  This copied post is completely fictitious and only meant as a fun thing, but it was taken to be a serious thing by a few people.
                  It's a hell of a fictitious post Bill and really made me lol. Whoever wrote that definitely has too much spare time on their hands. Raiser umbup:

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    when i was doing my diploma in information technology we actually had a discussion about rng's, and i bought up a few things about online poker, which i wont go into full here as my post will get deleted ...

                    but they could use natural occurrences, but i don't think so as many obstacles will be encountered, the only way online poker will become "rigged", is by hackers, and everything can be hacked... but stars can afford the best security team in the world, so i'm sure we will all be safe for awhile....maybe....lol...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think most of us here can figure out that online poker (at least the trusted, regulated sites like Stars) are not rigged by doing some simple research into RNG and the mechanisms used to generate decks and so on. But you will always get those who believe what they want about HOW things are done. They simply don't want to believe that what is said about RNG and so on is true and think it's all a conspiracy and lies. So even if after looking at the evidence for how it could be rigged (which already proves it's not) if someone still doesn't believe that then ask yourself why? What would be the point in rigging online poker?

                      How do Stars make their money? By generating rake. So for example in a tourney everyone enters and has paid their rake and Stars make their money. So what difference does it make to them who wins what hands or who cashes and who doesn't? The answer is it makes no difference. It doesn't make them more money or anything. In fact if they did rig it people would eventually get sick of it and not return and Stars would lose out on business. So providing a fair game is in fact in their interest.

                      Tournament of Champions Winner 2013

                      Bracelet Winner

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Fadyen View Post
                        How do Stars make their money? By generating rake. So for example in a tourney everyone enters and has paid their rake and Stars make their money. So what difference does it make to them who wins what hands or who cashes and who doesn't? The answer is it makes no difference. It doesn't make them more money or anything. In fact if they did rig it people would eventually get sick of it and not return and Stars would lose out on business. So providing a fair game is in fact in their interest.
                        +1000000umbup:umbup:umbup: John (JWK24)
                        Super-Moderator



                        6 Time Bracelet Winner


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 666bonez187 View Post
                          but it cant be totally random if its possible to predict the next cards to come, if you were to know a couple of factors....

                          Is it possible to predict the next cards?
                          More so than on a live table?

                          Grade b
                          I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

                          13 Time Bracelet Winner


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Grade b View Post
                            Is it possible to predict the next cards?
                            More so than on a live table?

                            Grade b
                            possible... anything is possible

                            easy... hell no....

                            im sure stars would be using multiple rngs on rotation and have a crack elite team of security equivalent of the S.A.S.,

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've never,not once,seen anyone seriously question the RNG or the site's integrity when THEY suck out.

                              ( Chukky's tongue in cheek "rigged" posts he puts up sometimes for his suck outs don't count, those of us who have been around for more than a minute know that Chukky is a sicko bastid and that's why he rulz... You da man Chukky!)

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