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Still stuck at 2NL tables

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  • Still stuck at 2NL tables

    Hi, I´ve posted several times about my ¿tilts? at 2NL poker. It just seems I do well for 1 or 2 days and then can´t hit a hand for 5 days. Just yesterday I once again lost over 4buyins in a single stretch (thats a massive $8, ), and now am totally confused on how to play at this limits. My idea is to work my way out building my bankroll but have been stuck at around 15 to 20 buy ins for 3 months, this cause on a good day I win around 0.5 to 1 buy ins (1 hr per day), but on bad days I loose 1 or 2. I play 4-6 tables at a time but am still able to observe which players are playing a lot of hands, which seem to win a lot without even getting to showdown, and get decent reads on what players have (still sometimes call to check if I'm right and guess what, I am). Yesterday examples: set on the flop but turn comes a second A and opponent trips Aces (at least), we get to showdown: me: 777-AA, opp: AAA-44. I hit a flush, opp hits full house or poker and was just flat calling, etc, etc... But my biggest concern is getting called when I raise AK, AQ, AJ, TT, etc since ther is no way I can read what the opp has, no matter how much I try, they seem to call 3BB bets with just about anything and if they bet they almost always have something good (a guy was raising almost every flop, so I think he is bluffing/being aver aggresive, but everytime I call/raise w a decend hand I get burned).
    On the past 5 days, if I had A witth top kicker, 90% of the time I got called by 2-3 guys, wouldn't hit the A or kicker on the flop, and opps raise so I end up losing my 3BB bet. 5% of the time the A comes out and no one raises/calls and 5% of the time my 3BB bet doesn't get called, so I'm losing money just by making this play. Should I do bigger raises or just flat call preflop??
    On the other hand, I haven't been able to go all in with AA for more than a week, I get called and either hit an obvious A on the flop or just get folded preflop.
    And if I have TT, JJ, KK or QQ, 90% an A comes out of course, so I´m freezed.
    I seem to loose less money when I just flat call instead of raising, but this isn't playing poker, and I´m not winning either, so what should I do?? It seems everytime I decide to play real poker I do well for a while and then loose it in a day or 2. I could put more money in to go up (maybe to $50 NL) but I think if I can't make it in the lowest limit... sorry for the long post, but have much to say, maybe will put more in when I get answers/comments.

  • #2
    Hard to give specific advice since you never mentioned if you play 6max or full ring. Either way, just tighten up post-flop and play straightfoward. It is hard to get tricky when your multitabling and most opponents will still make the same mistakes against you. Raise preflop with premium hands. If your getting too many callers, raise bigger. The bigger the raise needs to be, the tighter your raising range should be as well, generally speaking.

    I seem to loose less money when I just flat call instead of raising, but this isn't playing poker
    Huh? Calling and raising are two weapons you are armed with in the game of poker. The third is folding. Playing poker is all about choosing the right one at the right time. That said, if your calling too often and raising too little your are playing passively. It is going to be very hard to win in the long run playing passively.

    I could put more money in to go up (maybe to $50 NL) but I think if I can't make it in the lowest limit...
    Look dude. Moving up in the limits because you aren't beating your current limit is the craziest thing I have ever heard. The opponents get harder as you move up, not easier. Don't do that if you value your money.


    • #3
      Oh yeah, and NEVER TRIPPLE BARREL BLUFF BIG at 2NL. You will get stacked by someone with bottom pair 7 kicker. Trust me on that I had to learn it the hard way. It is ok to C-bet the flop sometimes when you missed if the opportunity seems present. Once and a while a smallish double barrel bluff can be ok if you think it will work. Barreling a flop c-bet, then making a substantial turn bluff, and getting the rest of your stack in on the river bluffing is never worth it at the 2NL limits. Your going to get called too often.


      • #4
        Thanks for your comments Rockerguy, a few things:
        1) Yeah, moving up is not an option, that's what the three dots went: "
        if I can't make it in the lowest limit... "
        2) I play NL full ring and almost never stay if number of players falls under 7.
        3) Triple barrelling the river: I also learned that the hard way, I don't do it any more unless i have a monster myself and believe my opp has a "lesser" monster and will call. Very occasionally I will call a raise on purpose when I think I'm beat just to check if I'm right on my reading, and keep them from bluffing.
        4)"I seem to loose less money when I just flat call instead of raising". This is a fact for me, the days I flat out call I make more money, don't know why, but it is. My explanation is that the idea of raising ie: AK is to get folds or get reraised and decide from there based on your opp (reraise or fold), isn't it? At least you should get info from an oppnent, but when you get called by 1, 2 or 3 loose players, what do you know? They don't give you the opportunity to reraised. They could have almost any pair, flush or even straight draws. So 2/3 of the time you miss the flop and have no idea what to do, and the one third you actually hit AA, raise and get called? Very few players actually call that bet with flush or straight draws, most of the time if they called they already made trips, else they fold. Same goes for cbets if you have AQ and flop is 72K, if they call they either know you're cbetting, or they have the K or they already hit a monster. And last case, you miss the flop completely and either you call and they raise or they raise before you, almost always a pot sized bet or at least 75%, so you don't have odds to call I believe? Unless you know they are bluffing, which is tough given the little info you get from them and is unlikely anyways. I would say I am loosing money most of the time with this hand. I would like to see stats on the actual odds for each of this scenarios happening, though.


        • #5
          A good poker book might help you deal with the uncertainty of post-flop play. My favorite is 'No Limit Holdem Theory And Practice', but there are many other good books. Just started reading 'Super System 2' which seems to have a solid No limit section as well.

          I would just recommend reading a lot, hitting up the hand analysis forum, the PSO training videos, and just continuing to grind it out at 2NL and build up more and more experience.


          • #6
            No books in my country, too expensive to have them shipped, but I visit a lot of website (I like the poker bank, very organized site, easy to follow information and already went through pokerstars basics) and check a lot of vids, but they talk a lot of how to act when you hit your hand, not on what to do when you don't. I keep learning obviously but I don't like trying so hard and this guys still beat me . Another question I do have is about reading players: by the time I get to read them, they already have my money and are leaving the table never to be seen again, so does it make a difference? I specially have a hard time telling when they are bluffing and when they are not. For regulars you get to know them and can take notes on them, for future knowledge.


            • #7
              "Look dude. Moving up in the limits because you aren't beating your current limit is the craziest thing I have ever heard. The opponents get harder as you move up, not easier. Don't do that if you value your money."

              I'm in two minds about that.

              While in one way I totally agree with you in another I disagree. Sitting at a table full of no foldems is frustrating and hard to beat. I speak as a STT player who is stuck at the low stakes but I find that for a STT to be profitable you need a nice mix of players. Sure you need the donkeys but you also need players who know a bit about the game that will fold a hand. I suspect a cash table will be the same.

              Maybe game selection would be a wise decision, watch a table for a bit before joining it and choose your seat wisely. I wouldn't multi table if I was losing and I would focus on the table and not do other things like surf the net.
              Bracelet Winner


              • #8
                And don't do anything fancy!

                Play it ABC, bet when you get a hand and bet hard. Most of your opponents won't have a clue about bet sizing so I'd be pot betting a lot when I hit. Don't give free cards as you won't be able to work out what hand they have. Remember a gutshot to them is a monster, just bet hard and don't give them odds to hit their draws/ middle pairs..... of course you know they'll hit
                Bracelet Winner



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