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  • Asked to leave the table

    The last 5 sundays I have played in the 2-4 holdem game at Commerce Casino. This game is filled with mostly older gentlemen. A few of them have started to recognize me, and they know how I play. I do pretty well at the game. In the 12 hours I have played there I have averaged a $20 an hour win rate.

    So last night I was playing again. There were a couple of people at the table I had played with before. After about an hour and a half I was up a little over $100, and the older gentlemen next to me stood up and annouced he was leaving. He seemed pretty upset. I asked him if everything was ok. To which he told me that I was too tight of a player. That playing with me was no fun. And even asked me to move up to the 4-8 table. I told him to just start bluffing me, since I was tight I would fold. He said no way, because that wasn't fun. And once he left, most everyone else at the table left.

    So after all that, here is my question. Is it worth it too move up to the higher limits (meaning 4-8 or 6-12) even though I don't think I currently have the bankroll for it? Or should I just stick around at the 2-4 and keep increasing my bankroll until I feel its at a comfortable enough level?

  • #2
    if you continue to make $20 per hour at 2-4, stay there for the time being. the guava nectar has been spilled...

    Comment


    • #3
      I think it's great you busted a 2-4 game. You should be in the book of records. Stay there-5 big bets an hour is a great win. You would need 3 big bets an hour at 4-8 to make the move worthwhile.

      Comment


      • #4
        i say stay there also, and if you are really comfortable around people that you dont know, you an still play tight and make the game very enjoyable at the same time. laugh it up with these people, strike up conversations, tell jokes. as you talk to people, you learn a few things and help your profits. you learn what type of players they are, what kind of mindset they are in, how they think, and all this information is used against them during hands. also, as people are chatting and laughing away, they are not concentrating on the game, and as long as you make it a point to do both at the same time, then you show even more profit. dont scare people away, and dont be obnoxious, a lot of people, especially in low limit games, are there just to have a good time. so give them a good time and they will pay you plenty for it..........best of luck to you,

        jmuzzey lsogc

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        • #5
          Jesus man! 5 (FIVE!) big bets and hour, and you broke the table up in a 2/4!?!?! That is very impressive!

          As far as moving up, it's not their decision. It's yours. You might want to give it a short try (a small piece of your bankroll), just to see how you fare there. Curiosity, and all.

          I would echo Muzz' thoughts on your approach at the table. Make it fun for them to play with you. Get to know them (how much you let them know you, perhapps a different story). Be friendly with them. Say hi to them by name. Etc.

          Comment


          • #6
            Can't overemphasize the importance of the previous posts...you can play low limit games and if you "control" the table dynamics with your personality, it can work for you. I have somewhat of an advantage, that when I play, a very high percentage of the players know me, from working there, and dealing to them frequently. That allows me the opportunity to call them by name, and to joke with them and get lots of information...most of it voluntarily. Most of em like for me to be in the game they are in, even tho I normally beat the game, simply because I try to make it fun for everyone. You can fold a lo of hands and not appear to be a "rock", if you are "prominant" in the game. They sometimes take your interaction with the table, as action in the game!

            8O


            'Goddess

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            • #7
              Thanks for the replies everyone. I do try to be personable at the table, but, its kind of hard. Most of the people at the table are old enough to be my grandparents. I have a hard time coming up with something to talk about. And most people don't want to talk poker while at the table (which I find odd). I am respectful to everyone at the table. I will join in with the laughter at the table. I honestly try to fit in, but thats hard when I am a third of the age of most of the people there. It also doesn't help me too much that I am a rather shy person around people I don't know. But playing poker has actually helped in that regard. So, I will keep at, try to open up more at the table, and try to fit in with the people there to have fun.

              And now for a quick question. Is $20 an hour at low limits really that good? I mean, it seems like any person playing ABC poker at a lower limit table at Commerce should be able to do it. I mean, I play pretty close to ABC poker. I don't attempt any moves, because no one will notice it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Is $20 an hour at low limits really that good?
                It's beyond "good" bordering on "unbelievable".

                However, until you've done it for HUNDREDS of sessions, don't you believe it. People can win fairly big for rather extended periods and still turn out to be overall losers. Happens all the time, whether you look at hours or weeks. Any edge one has in what is essentially a game of chance is miniscule.

                Never fall for the old cliche "I'm not a gambler, I play poker". Don't forget for a minute that you are in fact gambling even when you scrupulously only play when you have "the best of it" - you never have all that much the best of it - NEVER.

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                • #9
                  I do understand that I shouldn't look at my results and expect them to be normal, but still, these games seem so soft. These guys will play any A. Anything connected, any pair from any position. And once they are in the pot, rasing them won't scare them off. It seems to me that just sitting there, and being really patient, waiting for the good hands, you will win.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    usa,
                    I agree with you. Most of the time in the type of low limit game you describe, you are correct. Good solid ABC poker with the patience that requires, will allow you to beat the game more times than not....or at least that's my experience. Yes, I've had sessions where I did just that and no matter what I had, I got beat....that just seems to happen sometimes, and that's when you have to give it up for that day, or at least try a different game and see if it follows you. I think the $20 per hour is more realistic in low limit games than the accepted..."one or two big bets per hour" theory. If I play 5 hrs in a 4/8 game and win $40, I consider that a break even. I try to take out at least $100 out of these games, and strive to make it $200 +. I will say, when you reach a decent profit from the game, I find it advisable to leave with it. Seems to me, that time is not on your side after that. I have found myself up as much as $250 very quickly in these games and if I stay and stay...I bleed out a lot of it and may never hit another decent run to build it back up. That being said, you must realize, that I am playing most of the time, to make the money I would have made working that night, so $200 is the ultimate goal. I'm not playing for recreation, or to break the bank.
                    That being said, use that personality of yours. The old timers like to be "entertained" by a youngster ! DO NOT try to "talk" poker to these folks....they are there to have a good time..they don't want stats and plays and such. They'd rather talk about most anything else. Any older ladies? Pick one and very discreetly flirt a bit...not outright....just a wink and smile here and there and a cute comment. That sort of thing. Find the most extraverted man at the table and make friends with him...try to bantor a bit. You can become the one they look forward to seeing join "their" game.

                    8O

                    'Goddess

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think Goddess' advice is among the most cogent I've seen at this school to date.

                      I think the earn is a bit on the optimistic side. I used to think the rates were possible (5 BB/hour) until I kept really careful records. But we all agree that the games you describe are eminently beatable. The most important thing is to make them enjoyable for yourself and the others therein. Really like her specifics.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        PG, thank you very much for the advice. I made my weekly trip to the Commerce last night, and even though I didn't start out as you suggested, I ended the night that way. I played for 4 hours. The first three hours I just sat there bleeding chips for the blinds. I couldn't catch a hand to save my life. I was down to about $20, from my original $100 when I decided it was time to have some fun. So I started chatting everyone up. Talking to the people (well, the ones that could speak passabel english), and things started to turn around. I started getting better cards and my hands started holding up. I dragged in a few good pots and by midnight, I was up $10. Not a normal win for me, but it was a win.

                        There were also some other effects of my chatting with people. The man next to me, won these 3 hands ina row, K4 off, that flopped a full house, K3 off, that turned a full house, and then the K4 off again for the third straight full house. On the third hand, he says, "What am I supposed to do with crap hands like this?" To which I replied, "You win of course." And he did. And to show his gratitude, he tossed me a chip. This was totally new to me, but it happened a few more times. Then it seemed like whenever someone won a pot, they toked the dealer, and toked another player at the table for some strange reason. But it made the game alot more lively. I don't know if I was responsible for the change in mood at the table, but I would like to think that I helped a little.

                        And I have one question about rules. I was involved in a hand that was rather odd. I had KK, and by the river I was heads up with another guy. There was a possible straight on the board,b ut it had been there fromt he flop, and this guy hadn't been raising. So when he came out betting on the river, I read it as a bluff. Turns out, he wasn't bluffing, he flipped over his cards, and said, "Straight." I was disheartened, and turned over my kings. And then another player looked at the board, and informed the dealer that he didn't have the staight, he just had a pair of 5's. So the dealer pushed the pot to me, and then told the other player to put in an extra $8, which was alos given to me. I was just wondering why? Was he fined for calling out the wrong hand?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ursasmar
                          So the dealer pushed the pot to me, and then told the other player to put in an extra $8, which was alos given to me. I was just wondering why? Was he fined for calling out the wrong hand?
                          I'm going to assume that you were playing $4/8 and that when he bet out he pushed his chips out and then when he felt he had won the pot with his straight he pulled his chips back anticipating the rest of the pot being pushed his way. When it turned out you won, he had to put that last river bet back in the pot.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Have to agree with Wiscer here. Only thing I can figure that could have happened. The cards "speak" so it doesn't matter what he "called" his hand, and there would be no fine for that. I assume, like many do, that he did in fact misread his hand and pulled back his last bet, and the dealer, doing a fine job, in this case, caught his error and corrected the pot.
                            Very glad to hear that you livened up the game!! As you see, it does work. Doesn't account for the better cards you got, but certainly for the "demeanor" of the table.
                            It is hard to imagine that you went 3hrs without a hand, if in fact you meant not entering a pot. If that's the case, you may want to look at just how tight you're playing 4/8. Not saying you should be loosy goosy, but, you don't have to have huge holdings to see the flop in 4/8, you just have to be able to lay it down if you don't hit the flop. As I like to say..."if the flop don't fit....I must quit". Also, watch the boards that you don't play and see if any of your holdings that were folded pre-flop are making hands. I also use this as an indicator to see how my cards are running. If I would have made a number of hands that I didn't see a flop with, I mite try entering a few more pots. Sometimes the "PokerGoddess" has a plan for your cards..lol
                            The "toking" you speak of to the other players is known as "pinging"..it's kind of a friendly way for players to interact, provided it stays at a nominal one chip kind of thing. If I put a beat on someone in a game like this, I like to toss them a chip, provided they're not the angry type of loser, and call it a "lucky" chip for them. Just kind of soften the blow, so to speak. Another friendly fun thing to do, if the drinks are comped where you play, announce to the table that you're "buying" the next round...then of course, you make sure that you make a production with the cocktail person, that "this round is on me"...and you take care of the tip for the table. It's just amazing all the little things you can do and say that will enamour you to a table full of strangers. One huge benefit of this kind of thing, is you will see, that in many cases, it will "soften" the play against you. If people like you, they don't want to hurt you. Amazing the number of times that I've had people,when heads up, check the river with a big hand to me, and say..."your a nice lady...I'm gonna check to ya". Of course, I return the kindness, but I try to do it on more marginal hands, but make it seem like it's more of a kindness to them...lol.
                            There's just nothing more fun than a fun, lively, friendly game of poker...especially when you're winning!
                            Continued good luck to you !!

                            8O

                            'Goddess

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Geezer,
                              My figures may be higher in the BB per hour, as you have to experience the kind of action we have in these games to really believe it. The average pot in these "lively" 4/8 games, is probably $100 to $125, with some as high as $300 +. It doesn't take dragging many of these pots to make that win ratio a reality...if, you're only in there when you can win.
                              Thanks for your kind words, I guess to me, it's kind of natural to approach a game this way, since I'm so comfortable at a poker table, due to my job, and Lord knows, I've never met a stranger...lol. There's nothing in a poker game to me that's more boring and loses my interest quicker than a table where everyone is stoned faced and not talking and having a good time. It makes folding those 30 hands in a row, a lot easier to live with.


                              'Goddess

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