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Lion>Otter Bankroll Builder

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  • Lion>Otter Bankroll Builder

    I am new to PSO and would like to take part in the bankroll builder promotion. Thanks!


  • #2
    Welcome to PokerSchoolOnline! Be sure to read THIS just to be be sure of exactly what's on offer with the Bankroll Builder promotion. >>click here<< for a complete overview of what PSO has to offer. We will advise within 24 hours as to whether or not you will be eligible for this promotion. Please check back this time tomorrow! Thank you for being a member of and best of luck to you at the tables! John (JWK24) umbup:

    6 Time Bracelet Winner


    • #3
      Hi Lion>Otter, You are eligible for the Bankroll Builder promotion, good job! NB: Bookmark this page so that you'll find it easily in the future First Step Watch the following video and pay special attention to the tips on retrieving and saving your hand history from PokerStars. This will be important for the rest of your promotional journey.
      After wacthing this please play some PLAY MONEY FULL-RING (9-Handed) tables at PokerStars and using the Hand Replayer post a hand here in this thread that you have questions about. Here is a video on how to use the hand replayer.
      Then when you have that done please have a go at the Poker Basics Course and pass the quiz at the end of the course. So you have 3 steps to do to begin with and when you have all 3 done we will award you with your first bonus. 1) Watch the 'Getting Started' video 2) Post a 'PLAY MONEY' hand here in the Forum using the Hand Replayer 3) Pass the Poker Basic course. Let us know as soon as you have all 3 steps completed. Best of Luck! umbup:
      2 Time Bracelet Winner


      • #4
        hand history question

        I'm not sure what to do in this hand. I know with so many players seeing the flop, a pair of Aces is hardly the nuts, but on the other hand players in these play money games often call with much worse so I didn't feel like folding was correct either.

        PokerStars Hand #97710155555: Tournament #724416249, 1850+150 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2013/04/26 7:30:24 ET
        Table '724416249 1' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
        Seat 1: JAWRULE (780 in chips)
        Seat 2: Lion>Otter (1760 in chips)
        Seat 3: Shankersbend (3555 in chips)
        Seat 5: wionking (1320 in chips)
        Seat 7: biancaliz (3160 in chips)
        Seat 8: carola66628 (1485 in chips)
        Seat 9: Fatcobra55 (1770 in chips)
        JAWRULE: posts small blind 15
        Lion>Otter: posts big blind 30
        *** HOLE CARDS ***
        Dealt to Lion>Otter [Jh Ac]
        Shankersbend: folds
        wionking: calls 30
        biancaliz: calls 30
        carola66628: calls 30
        Fatcobra55: folds
        JAWRULE: calls 15
        Lion>Otter: checks
        *** FLOP *** [3s 4h Ad]
        JAWRULE: bets 150
        Lion>Otter: raises 150 to 300
        wionking: calls 300
        biancaliz: folds
        carola66628: calls 300
        JAWRULE: raises 450 to 750 and is all-in
        Lion>Otter: raises 980 to 1730 and is all-in
        wionking: folds
        carola66628: calls 1155 and is all-in
        Uncalled bet (275) returned to Lion>Otter
        *** TURN *** [3s 4h Ad] [Kd]
        *** RIVER *** [3s 4h Ad Kd] [3c]
        *** SHOW DOWN ***
        Lion>Otter: shows [Jh Ac] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
        carola66628: shows [4d 4s] (a full house, Fours full of Threes)
        carola66628 collected 1410 from side pot
        JAWRULE: shows [Ts As] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
        carola66628 collected 2700 from main pot
        *** SUMMARY ***
        Total pot 4110 Main pot 2700. Side pot 1410. | Rake 0
        Board [3s 4h Ad Kd 3c]
        Seat 1: JAWRULE (small blind) showed [Ts As] and lost with two pair, Aces and Threes
        Seat 2: Lion>Otter (big blind) showed [Jh Ac] and lost with two pair, Aces and Threes
        Seat 3: Shankersbend folded before Flop (didn't bet)
        Seat 5: wionking folded on the Flop
        Seat 7: biancaliz folded on the Flop
        Seat 8: carola66628 showed [4d 4s] and won (4110) with a full house, Fours full of Threes
        Seat 9: Fatcobra55 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
        Last edited by Lion>Otter; Fri Apr 26, 2013, 03:10 PM.


        • #5
          completed steps 1-3

          I believe I have completed the first three steps, unless I missed something with the poker basics course. I took and passed the quiz at the end so please let me know what is next thanks!


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lion>Otter View Post
            I believe I have completed the first three steps, unless I missed something with the poker basics course. I took and passed the quiz at the end so please let me know what is next thanks!
            Hello, You will need to post your hand for review using the Hand Replayer only, this is an important step. (Please see above post for instructions) Once you have posted your hand for review using the hand replayer we will analyse it for you and advise on the next step. Cheers, Raiser umbup:


            • #7
              hand replayer example I know this hand makes me look like a fish. But in play money games, I don't like raising pre-flop because it's very likely no one will fold then I've bloated a huge multiway pot with AJ. After the flop, I feel comfortable against the UTG short stack, but I know the two callers after should have me worried.


              • #8
                Thank you for posting this hand for review and I have asked one of the Hand Analysers to take a look at it for you.
                He will do this within the next 24 hours and once it's been analysed I will advise on the next step.

                Please complete the poker basics quiz. It is not coming up as passed yet.


                Last edited by HokyPokyToo; Fri Apr 26, 2013, 06:01 PM.
                2 Time Bracelet Winner


                • #9
                  Hi Lion>Otter! With AJ from the BB and 4 limpers, if I think that some of the opps could fold, then I will make a standard opening raise to 7BB (3BB+1BB for each limper). If the opps are all calling stations, then I'll check and see the flop, but I need to be willing to fold more often than normal due to the number of opps. I flop top pair and the SB makes a pot-sized bet (value bet for 4 opps). Here's why I'd rather raise preflop. A raise preflop would cost me 210 chips, but waiting until now to raise is going to cost me 450, as I need to raise to 3X the previous bet. I do not want to raise less than this, especially with multiple opps, as they opps can be getting the correct odds to outdraw me, if I'm not beat already. A/rag hands like A3 or A4 should muck to the preflop riase... but if they see they hit 2 pair, they won't fold. When I get 3-bet on the flop, I need to muck to this, as there are too many combinations and too many opponents that can beat me. The key here is to raise when out of position preflop, then to muck to the flop raise. I also would NOT feel comfortable against the SB here, as they could easily have 2 pair or better and so could everyone else. Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.umbup: John (JWK24)

                  6 Time Bracelet Winner


                  • #10

                    John, I see all of you points in a tougher game; however, in this small play money stakes game, here is my response to your comments:

                    pre-flop: like you said, if you can expect to thin the field, than obviously a raise would be the best play here. However, at these "stakes", I would expect to fold out on average <1 of the four hands even with a raise as high as 160 (I have been playing these stakes the last few days. Sometimes 1 player will fold, very rarely 2 players will fold, often 0 will fold, and NEVER will you win the pot right there (I mean literally 0 times out of maybe 100 or more tries in similar spots)). So a raise here just seems to bloat the pot, which will borderline commit us if we hit the flop even against a large number of opponents.

                    OTF: Yes a pot-sized lead looks very strong, but again at these stakes, I promise I am ahead of his range (not to say that I am definitely winning but there are many more combinations of hands I beat then I am beat by). Combining this with his short stack size, I feel comfortable committing to his stack (not that I am in love with it). The reason I feel we are ahead is that we can at least somewhat discount AK and AQ from his range (many players limp with these hands at this level but especially AK still probably gets raised more than 50%). We can also discount 2 pair hands a tiny bit and especially sets, as players often slowplay at these stakes. And I'm not saying they should be slow playing or that they will always be slow playing, but they will be often enough to let us discount them at least slightly. When you combine this with people's love for playing any A preflop and playing a flopped A like the nuts on the flop, I think we are way ahead here. The problem is the players behind. Again, they usually won't have anything and can often call even raises with crappy 1 pair hands. The question than is whether I should have just called or raised bigger the UTG's bet (or perhaps I could fold right then? seems too nitty). After the raise comes back as a shove from UTG, if he were the last player in the hand, I would still call him counting on my read combined with the huge pot odds from his short stack. However, I guess you are right when we combine the two cold-callers sitting behind, I really need to fold here. But this is what is killing me about play-money games. It is encouraging me to play bad. OTOH, I also believe that rather than just write it off as "these players are horrible", I think it's always better to think through things and come up with the best counter strategies to these extremely exploitable mistakes being made. I suppose the correct strategy is just to tighten up and value-bet mercilessly when you hit big hands.


                    • #11
                      Hi Lion>Otter!

                      Stake size really don't matter. These players are everywhere, from play money or freerolls, up to the biggest buy-in casino live games. I had one of them at my table last Friday in a $230 buy-in HPT tourney.
                      That's why I'll play these games just as seriously as I'll take a $1k buy-in. I'm sure I'll run into them in Vegas when I go there in June to play two WSOP events too.

                      In the second hand, I'm never discounting 2 pair here. As you say (and I totally agree), players will stay with any A or any suited cards, so every single Ax is well within their ranges. Also, the pot-sized lead bet by the SB is a huge problem.... it's the bet that prices out draws. Most lower thinking opps won't bet enough to do this or will overbet as a tell, but this opp bet the exact amount needed to maximize a gain and minimize a loss. Yes, it could be pure luck they hit it, but that don't happen often.

                      Tightening up and value betting the opps to death is exactly what needs to happen at PM or ANY of the microstakes tables... the same will hold true for 2NL, 5NL, etc. Trying to make fancy plays will only get US screwed up, instead of the opps.

                      John (JWK24)

                      6 Time Bracelet Winner


                      • #12
                        completed steps 1-3

                        Thanks John that last comment was very helpful. It is easy to let the bonehead plays we see sometimes become excuses to play too loose or make -EV plays. I guess flatting the first bet and folding to any further significant action is probably the play.

                        I have completed steps 1-3 so please let me know what the next step is in the promotion, thanks!



                        • #13
                          Hi Nick!

                          I'm still going to raise here. Being out of position without the initiative in the hand is going to be a huge chip leak over time as competent players with position on me WILL be able to exploit it.

                          What they'll do (and I would if I had position on a passive player too) is that I'll bet/raise the flop and the opp that is OOP won't have a clue whether they're ahead or behind and will end up mucking the best hand a good % of the time.

                          When playing out of position, I want to have the lead and the initiative in the hand... without it, I'll lose too many chips. Passive play when OOP is one of the larger chip leaks that many players have.

                          John (JWK24)

                          6 Time Bracelet Winner


                          • #14
                            Another AJ hand in the blinds! I don't know if you are only supposed to comment on 1 hand for this promotion but I'm going to try again and see what happens. In this case, I have 4 limpers in front of me and I'm in the small blind. Again I have an awkward stack size. If I raise to 700 (3x + 4 limpers) and get only 1 caller, then I'll have an SPR of 1 (pot 1400 stack ~1400) and am pretty much committed. If i raise smaller, then I'm asking to build a big multi-way pot out of position with AJ. So instead I elect to shove here. There is a lot of limped money that would great to take down uncontested. And here I get two callers, which to me illustrates what is so difficult about playing in these play money games. One calls with 56s (and he wasn't shortstacked) while the other calls with a limped AK. I end up sucking out and winning the pot, but the question is what is the correct play here. Could it possibly be a fold?


                            • #15
                              Thank you for posting this hand for review and I have asked one of the Hand Analysers to take a look at it for you.
                              He will do this within the next 24 hours and once it's been analysed I will advise on the next step.

                              2 Time Bracelet Winner



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