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  • #2
    Another great post Apryll......

    Played with you tonite for the first time for more than a hand or two. Must still be gettin the shit cards. LOL

    Anywho.....love your trip reports.....really helps me get a feel for live tourney action and makes me want to be there.

    Maybe i will get too in tunica. But thats still up in the air for me.

    Ru

    Comment


    • #3
      excellent reports apryll, thanks for sharing. it allows us all to see that not everyone can win. after reading trip reports and magazine articles, it makes it seem like all everyone doing is going out there and winning, but far more poeple lose than win. i know you are an excellent player, and you will win your fair share, this just wasnt the time for you. good luck to you in the future, just not against me. thanks again,

      jmuzzey

      Comment


      • #4
        Apryll,

        You play an excellent game- don't lose your discipline!!

        If anyone had told me I'd win that event, I'd probably have laughed. I believed in myself, but we all know how NL can go.

        Alan

        Comment


        • #5
          Great job on the NLHE tourney and on trip reports.


          I would have done the same thing with the KK.

          One thing geezer taught me is you cannot fear monsters under the bed. If you always think AA is out there you cannot play NLHE.

          Do you fold KK sometimes? I would have to have the most rock solid tell in the world to do it. And from your story you did not have it on that hand.

          Great job.


          Randy

          PS apryll said:

          Tournaments are a losing proposition, and the real money is in the cash games.
          I am sure that it is true. That the EV is much higher for cash games. But people play for different reasons. I get very little satisfaction from cash games. So I play them seldom. I get a huge charge out of tournament strategy and so that is what I play.

          Comment


          • #6
            ok apryll you asked about the KK hand in the genral forum and having read this post on sunday i have been thinking about it since and feel i should post my thoughts on this.


            at this point in the tourny only 1 person on the table could seriously damage you and there were only 2 hands you could possible go against him with all in and they were AA and KK but this hand was not a time when the KK was the correct play.

            when the big stack called the 4k (a raise from a big stack and a reraise) he let you know he had either AA or KK (as you had KK you could basically rule it out) otherwise he would have folded his hand to let you (the other big stack) take out the short stack (unless he thought you might fold in which case he might have called with less)

            to me i a big stack calls after a reraise of another big stacks raise he is saying i got a big hand you can call if you like and give him a bigger pot by reraising he knows you have to fold (anything but AA) and if you want to reraise watch me get the chips in.


            if the reraise was smaller it could have meant "i got a nice hand too" lets try and one of us take him out. But in this case the raise was too big for it and as you worked out in your head then dissmissed because of the amount of time he had them in such a short space of time he had the only hand he could have to have made that play.


            although most players (you, noodles,rggator) that have said they would go all in with the KK are better players than me i think you all need to re-look at the hand and the chip count and the postion in the tourny and then tell me honestly what other possible hand the big stack could have had.


            ps i enjoyed all the recent trip reposts and the thinking behind some of the hands played.

            Comment


            • #7
              KK vs AA vs 99

              Wow what an incredible beat. You had about 15k, you raise, the 99 reraised to 4k and the only stack that can bust you just calls. The fact that he just calls tells me I have the best hand preflop.
              I actually would be thinking that the only hand that could beat me was the reraise to 4K. And with an overcall, I could do no worse than breakeven. And if my all in raise were called I would be ahead of the game.
              I would have reraised all in as you did. I think Sklansky would have played it the same way.

              This is what we are taught. Get the money in the pot when you have the best of it. End of story.

              I had a similiar beat at the Queens classic a few years ago. If I replayed that hand over a few times, it was at least a few hundred. The point is don't let it get to you. With the information you had, you played the hand right.

              On the other hand, if he reraised all in then you would have reason to think about it and do as we are taught and perhaps not call all in. But you had no reason to believe you were behind the big stack.

              So forget about it and move on. We all know we haven't heard the end of your tournament adventures.

              DD

              Comment


              • #8
                Ok, I get to beat myself up over this call again, but I do appreciate the responses.

                At the time, we are at 40-50 players, so average stack is around 6K. At this table, seat 8 had 20K, I had 15K, one other player had 10-11K, the rest had 5K or less.

                Seat 8 and I were taking turns ramrodding this table. One of us raised nearly every hand, and the smaller stacks did not want to play against us. Just prior to this sequence we had a short break, so I had a pretty accurate chip count on everyone. It was also at this break I noticed TJ Cloutier had about 2K, and he ended up making the final table, which is a nice job with a short stack.

                I had decided at the break that the 5 or so really short stacks were hanging on for dear life and looking to get into the money, and I was going to really open up and get aggressive, including coming over the top of seat 8, as he had shown a willingness to lay it down to a big raise.

                About 4 or 5 hands following the break, I get the sequence of 3 hands that I report about. AQ, which I fold to an allin reraise, JJ which takes the pot, and KK. I raised 3 hands in a row, and laid one down to a reraise.

                When the 99 pushes allin with his 4k stack over the top of my standard raise, it could be anything and I love my KK. He has to take a stand against me or seat 8 sooner or later.

                When seat 8 comes over the top of him for his whole stack, all of the things ironside says went thru my mind. However, I kept coming back to the fact that I had opened up and raised 3 str8 hands, I had shown a willingness to lay it down to a big reraise, and seat 8 had aces 5 times in the last 2 hours or so.

                What could seat 8 have? Any big pair, or AK. I can safely put him on JJ, QQ, KK, AA, or AK. So 1 out of the 5 hands has me crushed, 2 of the five I have him crushed, and 1 I have a nice advantage, especially if the other active player has an ace. It was also possible he had a smaller pair and was trying to isolate the allin player.

                If I fold here, seat 8 would come over the top of me a lot more often. Of course, if I call and lose, I'm gone.

                I have not worked the math out, but I did not have a lot of chips in the pot at the time. I could have easily folded my KK and waited for another chance, still had the 2nd largest stack at the table, and continued to chop away at the blinds and antes. In hindsight, maybe that was the right move. As it turned out, seat 8 would have taken a 4K haircut when 99 flopped a set, and we would have had pretty similar stacks.

                So as far as tournament situations go, from a strict survive and advance standpoint, this was a clear fold, for all the reasons ironside states and for the reasons stated above. However, my strength is table dynamics, and absent a clear read on seat 8, I have to play to my strength. Table dynamics led me to believe seat 8 was making a statement with this raise. I thought he was saying, "back off Apryll, I'm still the big gun at this table." He looked at me like he truly expected me to fold.

                Given all the information I had available to me, I had to go with the KK. It was just too probable that he did not have AA, which is the only hand I hate. I was kind of hoping that maybe the 4K stack had AK, seat 8 had AK, and I had them drawing to 2 collective outs. As I explain above, I felt at the time that he makes that move with several hands. If I thought he only goes allin with AA, of course I fold the kings.

                A famous internet forum poster once said, "you don't make money in limit holdem making tough folds on the river." I agree. I also think you will not make money in NLHE if you make tough folds of KK preflop to a reraise. There are too many good players out there who will reraise you with lesser hands, especially when they have you stacked and can eliminate you, and even moreso when there is another allin player in the hand and their hand figures to play better headsup. Sometimes you just have to go for it.

                At the final table of the Championship NLHE event (where our very own hukilau made the final table), one of the best players in the world (Phil Ivey) made an opening raise with AQ. Howard Lederer came over the top with a big reraise with KK. Phil then came back over the top allin. Did Howard muck his KK? No, he called allin, busted Phil, and eventually won the tournament. I envisioned a similar result, but it wasn't meant to be this time.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I believe not only that you did right by going all in with KK (God hates a coward!) but for what it's worth, I would certainly would have done that there/then.

                  HOWEVER, I was very concerned that you included the superstitious comment
                  and seat 8 had aces 5 times in the last 2 hours or so.
                  That has absolutely nothing to do with anything and as long as you have that in your game, you've got a leak. In fact it is the same fallacious approach that makes you "uneasy" in an online situation (remember the guy who "couldn't possibly have 64" and therefore must have known what was coming?).

                  The KK not fearing the underbed monster (the AA he actually had!) is going to do better than the "I'll wait for a better opportunity" some have recommended.

                  All of your reasons (except the superstition noted) were sound poker motives and as you correctly pointed out there's a lot more wisdom in playing cash games than in the lotteries-disguised-as-poker we call tournaments.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ok again i am going against the grain

                    as i stated in a post in the genral forum i will rarely fold KK preflop but in this case i would have to(ok i wasnt live to get any tells from player)
                    apryl states that seat 8 and herself were taking it in turn to bully the table neither player showing any intention of wanting to get involved with each other.
                    the KK is only about 2-1 favorite v AK and although you were getting great odds and a win would put you in a great postion taking on a big stack at this point was suicidal they was still plenty of short stacks to play against and playing against the only stack that could knock you out even as a 4-1 favourite at this stage of the tourny was not the best play.

                    there are only a few time that folding KK is a good play and this is one of them. My thought on this would only change if i had thought that seat 8 was capable of making a move on me with KQ but reading between the lines i dont think they would have.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by geezer
                      HOWEVER, I was very concerned that you included the superstitious comment
                      and seat 8 had aces 5 times in the last 2 hours or so.
                      That has absolutely nothing to do with anything and as long as you have that in your game, you've got a leak.
                      I don't think this consideration is based on superstition, and I don't think Apryll was looking at it from a superstitious viewpoint.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ironside
                        there are only a few time that folding KK is a good play and this is one of them. My thought on this would only change if i had thought that seat 8 was capable of making a move on me with KQ but reading between the lines i dont think they would have.
                        If they know you are capable of folding KK they would have. If you fold, I hope you would do it quietly.

                        One thing is for sure, the other big stack did not give Apryll a hand as strong as KK, and based on the read Apryll had, it would probably be a mistake to fold.

                        If you were the other big stack, Iron, then Apryll would have had you on a narrower range of hands and probably have folded, being right to do so from what you have said.

                        Though, Iron, I do wonder what you would have done if you held QQ or JJ in that other big stacks position, knowing that Apryll could have put the first raise in with any 2 cards. Is AA or KK really the only 2 hands you would play against Apryll in that spot, as you say?

                        Another important consideration is that Apryll thought that she would own the table, with the stack she would have had by winning that hand. Probbaly guaranteed a top 3 spot. Giving up an edge of even 2-to-1 in that case would be a big mistake. It usually is anyway in a tournament, but if winning it guarantees a top 3, then it is even a bigger mistake than normal. There isn't a player in history that could justify it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Though, Iron, I do wonder what you would have done if you held QQ or JJ in that other big stacks position, knowing that Apryll could have put the first raise in with any 2 cards. Is AA or KK really the only 2 hands you would play against Apryll in that spot, as you say?
                          first if i was in seat 8 and apryl had shown that she was going to play her stack in hands that the other big stacks were not involved in as was case in this post i would have folded QQ JJ AKs and let apryl attpemt to take player out.

                          if UTG (apryl) had a medium size stack instead of the only stack on table that could hurt me the game changes and i could play as little as AJ or 88 (depending on read of both players)
                          i have (by some people) an image of being too tight by i think i am am selectivly aggressive folding big hands when the time is right and playing rags when the time is right.

                          in folding the KK i would have mucked them but i also would have told the player as i mucked (last person to act) that his AA was good to let him know i had a read on him. I did this in a school event when i told a player that his 89 was good then called for a single bet on the river knowing i was beat just to let him know i had a read it help it later rounds when you raise with nothing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Johnny Chan said, "I never folded KK preflop" so I always remind myself of that. If Johnny Chan doesn't fold KK, why should I? If I run into AA, it was just destined to be that way. I once had 5 people go all-in in a cash game online and I looked at my KK and remembered Johnny's advice. I said, there's got to be an AA out there. Johnny's voice told me...never fold KK before the flop.

                            I led the hand the whole way and picked up a huge pot.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Part of the reason is pyschological. I doubt players push Chan around like they do Helmuth.

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