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Roland's 6-Max May Challenge

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  • Roland's 6-Max May Challenge

    ArtySmokesPS has convinced me to do a 6-Max challenge similar to his. Like him, I am a Full Ring player. Normally you will find me multitabling 25NL Full Ring Zoom. My only 6-Max experience has been an expensive foray directly into 50NL Zoom and 100NL Zoom back in February while on tilt. No surprize how that worked out!

    Doing this challenge publicly will help me remain honest with myself. Hopefully it will be useful, or at least entertaining, for you. And, I’m shall we say rather competitive! Making this a personal challenge will help me remain focused.

    I don’t intend on forsaking Full Ring. This is just a short mission to gain some knowledge. Firstly, I’ve been curious for some time why 6-Max is more popular than Full Ring. Secondly, I get most of my Zoom inspiration from Gareth and xflixx, both of whom are 6-Maxers. Thirdly, I am a firm believer that learning to be competent at many different formats is an essential step along my quest to become good. I am no pro, but I can still strive to play like one! I am a winning player now, but I have a long way to go before reaching the “scary good” level of thinking demonstrated by the PSO trainers. And finally, a discussion with TrustySam last week really made me curious. She commented that “...what constitutes “straight-forward” at full-ring must not be the same as for 6-Max necessarily? “Well, Sam, time to find out for myself! Can an ABC/TAG full ringer be profitable against all those 6-Max luckboxers?

    My Plan
    Bankroll management is everything, but I am rolled to play at higher stakes. So, my plan differs from Arty’s. I will start at 2NL and will move up if/when I have won 10 stacks at that level. I am going to focus on this challenge full time for the remainder of May.
    Note: I am going to include the hands I have already played this month in my challenge results.

    2NL Zoom: Move to 5NL after winning $20 profit
    5NL Zoom: Move to 10NL after winning $50 profit
    10NL Zoom: Move to 25NL after winning $100 profit
    25NL Zoom: Move to 50NL after winning $250 profit

    I’ll update this thread every 1K hands. Plus I’ll do a review of my impressions after completing each level.

    Goals
    This is primarily a learning experiment for me. Nonetheless, I fully intend on reaching 25NL. At that point I hope to be able to make an honest comparison between full ring and 6-Max.

    Wish me luck!

    Roland GTX
    Last edited by Roland GTX; Fri May 10, 2013, 12:22 PM.

  • #2
    GL & All Thee Bestumbup:
    3 Time Bracelet Winner


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    • #3
      Good luck in this Roland - I will keep an eye out for how it goes!

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      • #4
        2NL Zoom Results

        As I mentioned, Im including the hands Ive already played this month. I want to spend as little time as possible at 2NL. There just isn't enough money or vpps there. I played these hands earlier this week while just messing around and having some fun. My approach was to play my standard full ring range by pretending that the first three postions had folded. No fancy play, just "straight-forward" poker

        I'm running 16.8vpip/13.7pfr/5.83-bet.

        First impressions: People call really light from the blinds which has allowed me to c-bet the flop and turn more often than at full ring. This has drawn my redline up considerably compared to Full Ring. To what extent this difference is due to being at a lower buyin level or being on 6-Max remains to be seen.



        I'm off to a great start and am halfway done with 2NL. I want to be done today.

        Roland GTX

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        • #5
          amazing results for the start.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Roland GTX View Post
            And finally, a discussion with TrustySam last week really made me curious. She commented that “...what constitutes “straight-forward” at full-ring must not be the same as for 6-Max necessarily? “Well, Sam, time to find out for myself!
            Well, the thrust of that comment was that I felt my play was straight-forward - but that I wasn't sure if you felt that hand was FPS, to keep saying that my game was anything other than based on value. And you seemed to agree that that hand was straight-forward. So like, it doesn't follow that you'd need to play 6-max to find out what constitutes straight-forward in 6-max ... as defined by that hand.

            So like, while I do get the sense that you were inspired to do this in part by our discussion - it can't be for the reason you've stated. BUT THEN ... looking at other 2 reasons you've given for venturing into 6-max - I LOVE this idea that to be better at a specialization, it might paradoxically require one to stop playing that one game, and learn others ... to get fresh ideas. Such outside the box thinking is why I'm such a fan of you Roland!!

            Actually found that to be the case with the STTs I used to play before switching to cash - I'd hit a cross-roads and decided that if my shots at the $3.50 level didn't go well, then I'd give cash a try instead. And after playing cash for a year, with all that experience in post-flop play that goes with the deeper stacks, when I went back to play STTs while my computer was in the repair shop, I had the most massive edge over the field with the $3.50s - one that I probably wouldn't have developed if I had just stayed and played STTs?

            Something I would imagine full-ring could probably help my game with are those close calls of big hand versus big hand against other regs with strong starting hands. If those comprise the bulk of the situations at full-ring. You guys with the hundreds of thousands of hands of experience dealing with those close calls - and of letting strong second-best hands go - must be able to do handle those spots in your sleep.

            Some trademarks of the different 6-max stakes that I've noticed ... and maybe others might have some to add as well:

            2nl - common for players to stay too long in pots, check-calling with pocket pairs, and chasing draws
            5nl - same, but you'll still see regs getting too attached to top 10 starting hands, and staying too long in hands with these
            10nl - only 15,000 hands, but it seems like having a plan, and sticking to it with 3-bet pots (of which there's lots), could be a big edge?


            It would seem that a lot of that stuff you probably already know how to do, so hopefully just getting used to the other stuff like playing A7o vs K8s, etc will be most of what's new?

            Fun experiment - I feel inspired to try something similar to stretch my wings, so thank you Roland and Arty for doing this, and for sharing your journey with the rest of us ... I draw courage from watching the two of you being willing to step outside your comfort zone
            Last edited by TrustySam; Fri May 10, 2013, 01:08 PM.

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            • #7
              2NL is history! Let's look at my results before turn my attention to 5NL. 2442 hands at 2NL Zoom $21.32 profit (slightly -ev...) 43.7bb/100 Here are my stats: And here is my graph: And here is the hand that put me over the top: Yes, I ran so well you could start calling me Sandtrap Check out his blog post from last year if you don't know what I'm referring to! Seriously though, I made some huge hero calls my first few sessions just to get an idea what the opponents were doing. I also made plenty of mistakes as always. Yet, the final hand posted above pretty much sums up my 2NL experience! I took them to value-town every chance I could. One point worth noting. I rarely called preflop raises. I only called with speculative hands when 2 opps were already in the hand. So, yes I folded hands like A10o when facing a raise, even if I was on the btn. I was 3-betting pretty much any pair and A10s+ hand though. Let's hope it's as easy to print money at 5NL as it was here Roland GTX

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Roland GTX View Post
                2NL is history! I took them to value-town every chance I could.
                To take people to value town requires having the best hand. But we've all been through those periods where we're not doing that - or are doing that, and getting outdrawn by the river. Which would be a whole other aspect of 2nl to experience. I guess the decision on whether to move on from 2nl after 3,000 hands, if you haven't yet experienced a full cycle of variance, will depend on what it is you were hoping to get out of your time at the tables? From a learning perspective, I was thinking you might 'enjoy' having the chance to take people to value town on the flop, and turn, only to get outdrawn on the river by some player who couldn't let go of 29o ... time and again, for like 25,000 hands straight. In terms of ranging - and tilt-management LOL - maybe that'd be something worth sticking around for? It's gonna slice your win-rate in half though, guaranteed, to stay for longer. And also, there'll still be plenty of opportunities to experience the same at 5nl, so ... All the best Roland umbup:
                Last edited by TrustySam; Fri May 10, 2013, 02:45 PM.

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                • #9
                  43.7bb/100 over 2400 hands is just ridiculous! I love the value-shove with the rivered boat on the 4-flush board. 2NL villains are always calling there with the nut flush, and maybe even worse.

                  I've not played much yet, but I've found that - like you - I'm hardly ever hitting the "call" button pre-flop. In full ring games, I do a lot more speculating in multiway pots, but those don't occur so often short-handed. I'm giving up my blinds perhaps a little too often, but I'm stealing so many that I more than make up for the losses. 3-bets seems to be getting more respect than I expected.
                  Trying to work out villains' stack off ranges is tricky at this point (so few hands, stats haven't converged) but I've seen some pretty weird play. There was one TAG who 3-bet me when I had queens. I 4-bet, planning to call a shove, but he min 5-bet. I thought "Oh well, I guess I have to pay off his aces" so got it in. He showed pocket 4s! If "tag regs" are doing that, I can definitely widen my value 3-betting/4-betting range.

                  Good luck at 5NL! With my runbad at 2NL, I might be stuck down here forever.
                  Bracelet Winner

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                  • #10
                    I haven't seen a reg stack off at 2nl with 4s lol think im gonna have to pick my tables better if your getting that sort of action.

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                    • #11
                      Hi TrustySam! Getting a nice confidence booster at 2NL is great. I don't dare play more here As you and Arty pointed out "running 43bb/100 is ridiculous". Nonetheless, I feel very confident that I would be a winning player at 2NL. I wasn't on some crazy heater. My ev is actually slightly negative. I got stacked several times making mistakes and other times getting unlucky: Plus, it wasn't just one good session. Here are my session results for 2NL I'm moving up because that was the goal I set for the challenge - move up after earning 10 buyins at that particular level. Plus, I know 5NL will offer more challenges. I played 2K hands there earlier this week and am running closer to 4.3bb/100 rather than 43 I ran here Roland GTX

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                      • #12
                        wow nice results man best of luck
                        Triple Bracelet Winner

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                        • #13
                          Happy Trails on the journey up the 6 max ladder Rolandumbup: Added it to my favorites tab, will be fun to watch your progress. Was/Is a lot of inspiration to have seen Sandtrap go through it and do so well. The table dynamics and the "stories" of such I find very interesting and sometimes entertaining as well. Take care and may rungood be with you
                          Triple Bracelet Winner

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TrustySam View Post
                            To take people to value town requires having the best hand. But we've all been through those periods where we're not doing that - or are doing that, and getting outdrawn by the river. Which would be a whole other aspect of 2nl to experience. I guess the decision on whether to move on from 2nl after 3,000 hands, if you haven't yet experienced a full cycle of variance, will depend on what it is you were hoping to get out of your time at the tables? From a learning perspective, I was thinking you might 'enjoy' having the chance to take people to value town on the flop, and turn, only to get outdrawn on the river by some player who couldn't let go of 29o ... time and again, for like 25,000 hands straight. In terms of ranging - and tilt-management LOL - maybe that'd be something worth sticking around for? It's gonna slice your win-rate in half though, guaranteed, to stay for longer. And also, there'll still be plenty of opportunities to experience the same at 5nl, so ... All the best Roland umbup:
                            Originally posted by Roland GTX View Post
                            Hi TrustySam! Getting a nice confidence booster at 2NL is great. I don't dare play more here As you and Arty pointed out "running 43bb/100 is ridiculous". Nonetheless, I feel very confident that I would be a winning player at 2NL. I wasn't on some crazy heater. My ev is actually slightly negative. I got stacked several times making mistakes
                            Well first off, of COURSE you'd be profitable, even crushing 2nl - like I've said, you're a role-model to me, and a star!! That being said, since the goal of this exercise for you was to grow by experiencing a different style of play, I just thought it might be important for me to point out that it sounds like we're talking about different scenarios? Like you say that you there were times you lost money by making mistakes - there should also be periods where you're losing money, and aren't doing anything wrong. Quite a bit of money too! Because that quality in your opponents that's allowed you to rack up those mammoth pots - them not being able to fold draws, etc - is what's going to cause you to lose fairly big pots on the river, when a whole bunch of them actually hit their 3-outers, all at the same time. With the most unbelievable holdings!! There'll be plenty of chances to experience that at 5nl though ... and from what I've seen so far at 10nl, there too. So probably that's the best place for you to be if you're enjoying things there umbup:

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                            • #15
                              5NL Zoom update 3184 hands $14.39 profit 9bb/100 I played a 1K session a few days ago where I wasn't paying attention (watching a movie and hanging with the kids) I lost 4 buyins that session. Anyway, after that I've been bringing my A-game. I just finished a 1K session, my first at 5NL since starting the challenge. They are all included in my results. Two hands worth posting AA cracked: And one for Ed, flopping Quad Aces: Their aren't as many players just giving me their money as there were at 2NL, but I'm finding 5NL beatable as long as I keep my head in the game. Roland GTX

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