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My Pot Limit Omaha

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  • #46

    The sorting feature for hands is awesome if you see spots where you're having problems. ex: raised pot pre (and can even sort by sizings), the when facing a bet on a postflop street. So, say we raise pre and are facing a pot-donk bet... you can sort for that and quickly pull up every situation where it's happened. Pick your scenario and you can sort by it.

    John (JWK24)

    6 Time Bracelet Winner

    Online Poker League
    Can you win the leaderboard?


    • #47
      JWK24 Yes agreed I'm just getting started with it, can't think why I haven't been using this before.


      • #48
        Exploring Poker Tracker 4 Omaha version. I've been spending a lot of time reviewing my play using the filters in PT4 Omaha version and have already identified a number of actions where I need improvement. Just starting with the pre-flop hand selection, I have made a few minor adjustments that should help my game.

        Previously, I had been saving my hands and reviewing them on an hand replayer. Whilst this was very useful it was difficult to integrate all the information into more general rules of play. So I might not like the way I played a particular hand but that was tough to translate into a list of starting hands, or best strategy on each street as it was only one hand against one opponent. This exercise is still useful but using software that collates all the information from all the hands I've played allows me to focus down on one particular aspect of the game which is harder to do when I've only reviewed the last 50 hands I played.

        I think this might be even more important in PLO than it is in NLHE. We all know there are only 1326 starting hand combinations in NLHE, but there are 270,725 in PLO. This makes analysis much harder without software and requires categorising the hands in some way. The filters in PT4 make this possible and I've managed to crystalise all the possible starting hands down to 22 different categories. Analysing the results of these categories from different starting positions has been very illuminating and I couldn't have done that without the software.

        Whilst it seems my VPIP varies sensibly with position, there is a category of rundowns that I have not done well with from early position. That might not mean I shouldn't play them but this needs to be explored further and until I understand why I'm not doing well with these they are going to be dropped from my early position play. I might introduce them again later once I see what the problem has been.

        However, it is important to be careful not to simply discard starting hands in PLO because they are currently losing you money. There is a very interesting graph in PT4 which shows the % VPIP and pre-flop raise % for both winning and losing players. When I opened it I expected to see all the PLO winning players clustered around some central point and all the losing players to have stats that were lying outside somewhere. I was wrong, it seems in PLO winning players are evenly distributed throughout the graph with ranges from 8 - 54% for VPIP and 1 - 30 for pre-flop raise %, and the same can be said for all the losing players. There appeared to be no difference between the two groups. Maybe that is why I love PLO so much, it is a game where you can develop your own style and still be a winning player.


        • #49
          When you've read all the books and seen all the videos. If there is one fact that all of us students in the school know it is that we must keep studying and learning to improve our game. If we stop, the game will simply move past us and leave us behind (actually I'm still trying to catch it up ).

          But what do you do when you've read all the books and seen all the videos. Over the last year or so of learning to play PLO, I have read 8 poker books, dozens of articles and seen countless videos. During internet searches I rarely find an article or video I haven't already read or watched (can't understand why I'm not one of the best ).

          The answer is simple, you read it all and watch it all again. Instead of being a dull proposition, it is absolutely vital. First, the cognitive abilities of humans are limited to remembering a part of what they read and see. The %varies amongst individuals and is dependent on such things as interest in the subject and the environment they are in. But the message is clear you do not retain everything you read and see and over time it fades. So it needs repeating. And secondly, having played many more hands since the first reading, all those concepts in the books, articles and videos should make more sense and the interaction between study and playing should bring additional learning +EV.

          Staying with cognitive abilities, humans remember much more of what they say and write and even more of what they do. So to become truely great it is necessary to write about the poker concepts after you have come to understand them as well as practice the real thing at the poker tables. A golf coach once told me that to get a swing right you need to repeat the exact swing at least 500 times. Applying that to the poker tables and the many complicated concepts will require a lot of doing.
          Last edited by DrIbbo; Wed Mar 06, 2019, 03:55 PM.


          • #50
            Do you think winning at micro stakes in PLO is harder than NLHE, because the starting hands are so close in value are the mistakes made in PLO not as big as NLHE, so is it harder to build a bankroll ?


            • #51
              73REX73 I don't think there will be much difference, because there are decent players and novice players in both pools. Certainly, the variance in PLO is higher, as it is very common to get your money all-in on breakeven, 55:45 or 60:40 equities on the flop or turn, so you can run hot or bad for quite long periods. I think PLO is more complicated than NLHE, because of things like the pot betting structure, difficulty in narrowing ranges with so many hole cards, more complicated equity calculations, more bluffing opportunities and numerous SPR considerations.

              Partly because of this and the limited amount of training material generally and less software development for PLO, the average player is possibly not as well coached as in NLHE, so that creates opportunities if you are willing to work. Don't get me wrong, there are some really good PLO players in the micro-stakes, but novices find it hard to understand the equities and SPR considerations at first and so make a lot of mistakes.

              I have not played NLHE cash for a long time, so would find it hard to do a direct comparison, but from what I see in posts here it looks as though many micro stake players are good.

              I suppose in PLO it is reasonable to expect a win rate of somewhere between 15 and 30 BB/100 hands if you play a solid, non-experimental game and are willing to work on your skill. I think over the course of the last year I've been playing it has got tougher. There is now a PLO solver for example.

              What win rate could you expect in NLHE?

              Maybe you have already, but if you are curious try PLO. IMO it is a lot more fun than NLHE. Although, I am referring to the cash games. Tournaments are different, with the high amount of hand to hand variance, it is easier to bust out of PLO tournaments.


              • #52
                The increased variance of PLO. These two hands were from a Zoom session of only 175 hands today and demonstrate the variance of PLO. 73REX73 as above this shows what can happen in PLO fairly frequently, with these 2, 55:45 and 50:50 hands. They make PLO look simple though LOL.


                Phew, I got lucky not to split this pot


                Oh well I was money favourite when we got it in. Money comes and goes


                • #53
                  I have read what some players say is achievable at certain stakes, but I do not thinks it is helpful, we are all unique players , I hope you are able to play the Community Tournament at the end of the month .


                  • #54
                    73REX73 Yes I hope to play the Community Tournament this month. I've missed the last 2 through family commitments so it is not always possible, but I think it is a good tournament so hopefully I'll be free this month.


                    • #55
                      Matching dreams with reality. This is just a bit of fun but it does have a serious aspect. Lots of Pokerschool members, including myself, post about the challenges and goals we have for our poker futures. Sometimes these are modest, other times we are inspired to dream bigger by stories of players making it to the top and coming away with magnificent bankrolls and the fame to match. This ambition is highly admirable and exactly as poker life should be.

                      I share the same dream as many Pokerschool members and players alike, to make it to the very top of our game and, specifically, in my case to reach and beat the $200/$400 Pot Limit Omaha stakes (I think this is called the ‘nosebleed’ region). However, it is always good to test whether a dream is realistic so I decided to work out what I would have to do to achieve such high ambition. This is me re-assuring myself that my dream could meet reality. Hence, I produced the table below as a simply estimate of the reality of what I will have to do?

                      In producing the table I have assumed
                      1. A starting bankroll of $100.
                      2. A requirement for a bankroll of 50x the buy-in before commencing a higher level (this is high variance cash Pot Limit Omaha, so I might need a higher bankroll than normal).
                      3. That I can acquire the capacity to beat the current level and the next through study and practice, along with the help of my Pokerschool friends.
                      4. That I can beat each level at the modest rate of 10BB/100 hands. That would seem a reasonable yet conservative rate if I can beat the game. It takes no account for hands played whilst growing accustomed to high altitude and the associated losing periods.
                      Limits BB Buy-in ($) 50x Buy-in ($) Win Rate BB/100 Number of hands to reach required bankroll at next level
                      1c/2c 0.02 2 100 10 75000
                      2c/5c 0.05 5 250 10 50000
                      5c/10c 0.1 10 500 10 75000
                      10c/25c 0.25 25 1250 10 50000
                      25c/50c 0.5 50 2500 10 50000
                      50c/$1 1 100 5000 10 50000
                      $1/$2 2 200 10000 10 50000
                      $2/$4 4 400 20000 10 25000
                      $3/$6 6 600 30000 10 33333
                      $5/$10 10 1000 50000 10 50000
                      $10/$20 20 2000 100000 10 75000
                      $25/$50 50 5000 250000 10 50000
                      $50/$100 100 10000 500000 10 50000
                      $100/$200 200 20000 1000000 10 50000
                      $200/$400 400 40000 2000000 10
                      Total 733333

                      In summary, I would need to play ~750,000 hands if my win rate is 10BB/100 hands at each level. This could be halved if I had a win rate of 20BB/100 hands. If I wish to achieve that in 5 years (with 25 days a year holiday) I would need to play ~450 hands per day.

                      Assuming I do not remove any of my bankroll, by the time I reach the $200/$400 tables I will have accumulated $2m.

                      After that, good luck everyone, I'll be off to Rio.


                      • #56
                        Wow, amazing stacks in $2 game: I've played a lot of hands in these $2 Zoom PLO 6-max games and recently I've noticed around 6 maybe as many as 10 players that are always playing several Zoom tables at once and have stacks of 10+ buy-ins at every table. This is not a random occurence as it is always the same players. This represents absolutely incredible play that I have never managed to achieve. Today I came across one player with over 22 buy-ins.

                        I started to think what sort of win rate would you need to accumulate such a big stack, and how many hands would you need to play. Well at 40 BB/100 hands, that would be over 5,000 hands, for each table. That is quite a marathon even at Zoom. Is it possible that their win rate is even higher?

                        I don't know how they do it, but hats off to them. I can only dream of achieving a win rate like that.

                        I'll let you know if I ever have even one session like that, let alone every time I visit the table.


                        • #57
                          Another 3 months have passed since I updated my PLO cash game progress. Despite the usual excuses of being a family man first I did try to ramp up the number of hands of $2 PLO that I played. Essentially I have decided after reading Pete 'Carroters' Clarke's article on moving up that I should play 50,000 hands of $2 PLO to demonstrate I can win at a rate greater than 10BB/100hands before moving up. Then I should move up and try to stay up instead of dipping my toe in the higher pool occasionally.

                          In the last 3 months I managed to play 12,959 Zoom PLO hands and made a profit of $30.34, so I'm getting close to finishing the 50,000 $2 PLO Zoom hands overall. Hopefully another couple of months will do it.


                          • #58
                            Bit of time out. I've recently decided to take on another enterprise which is going to take up quite a bit of my time. Unfortunately, for the moment that will mean a lot less poker and hence a good deal less posting and contributing in the Forum.

                            So for the time being I'll wish everyone I've come across over the last year or so at Pokerschool the very best of luck with their game. I've enjoyed my time here. I will try to drop in occasionally especially to read the blogs that I've grown to love reading so hope you'll keep posting.

                            All the very best


                            • #59
                              Good luck in your new enterprise Drlbbo .


                              • #60
                                Haven't posted a hand here for a while, but I played this one today. As I went through every betting/raising and re-raising stage I wondered if I should stay in the pot and when I won I felt like I'd inflicted a bad beat on the villains, but actually when I looked at the equities I was money favourite throughout even on the flop. I spend a lot of time studying the equities in this game but sometimes they still surprise me.




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