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Muck This

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  • Muck This

    This was truly a bad beat, and although this is the first time I've ever posted here........I'M JUST FURIOUS !!! It's not even about the play and cards played, as much as it is about the attitude of the person who did it. WPO warm up, Monday afternoon.

    OK..the hand..just so you know...(and again...they can play how they choose, but the aftermath is appalling). I'm having trouble with the exact details, because I'm so upset right now...but here's the basics....

    Me...LP ...KK..stack size 32K...short stack in early position goes all-in with about 2500. MP with about 30K re-raises 15K...for some reason, and I'm not sure why..all the software would do is let me call..or at least my "raise buttons" weren't I just call. Would have preferred to re-raise all in, but don't think it would have made a difference. The board comes rag, rag. rag....MP checks..I go all in. MP calls. turn is rag. river is rag...board is like 9 high. Hands show and MP cards are 45d...for a str8.

    I comment "you got to be kidding?"....the conversation that insues is the "fun player" MuckThis....says...."I'm here to have fun...I don't give a crap about this stuff...I'd never play poker for real money...and doing this is fun."

    Now, I understand and am the first one to say..they can play what they want when they want....but these people who do this intentionally and waste my and your time when we're trying to accomplish something as important as getting a entry to the WPO is just ridiculous.

    If she had said...."I felt lucky"....or "that's my favorite hand"..or even " I was trying to shut anyone else out of the hand"...maybe I wouldn't be so upset....but to say...."I don't give a crap about this..I'm just having fun" makes me crazy !!!! Even if it were a regular tournament, where you can recover in another one...maybe I wouldn't care as much, but there are a limited number of these that can be played, and I for one try to do the best I can in every one of them hoping to advance thru the levels to make the final, and I think that's why it pissed me off soooo much. The attitude of "I don't give a crap about this...I'm just here to have fun". Well my time is more valuable to me than hers is to her, obviously...and that is what irritates me.

    I know, I sounds hypocritcal based on recent events for me to be upset about her play...but believe was her flippant attitude that REALLY steamed me, and I guess this is the place to vent.

    Anyway.....if you encounter MuckThis in a WPO warm up...BEWARE...she is just here to "have fun" and "doesn't give a crap" tread carefully.

    With apologies to Kelly Knight, as I respect Clay as a fellow PSOer and very good player, for telling Kelly, not to defend what she referred to as this persons play as "she's just being aggressive today". As I told her, there's a difference between agressive and just plain idiotic.

    I don't feel better yet.....but I know I will....eventually !!

    Thanks for listening 8O


  • #2
    but to say...."I don't give a crap about this..I'm just having fun" makes me crazy
    They were probably making excuses, or winding you up.


    • #3
      PG- welcome to my world (sort of). Having been near the top of the rankings since I joined, I get "attacked" as much as anyone. I have been told by players at the table "I don't care about the rankings, I just want to bust the top-ranked player" as they show me 37 off to crack my AA. Or, "see, poker is all luck" as they table Q7 to crack my KK on a board of AK777.

      Sure, they can play however they want, and when the miracle doesn't get there we benefit, but it still stings getting called by crap hands simply because players have "nothing to lose" and are here to have fun. As I write this, I have not played a single hand for 40 minutes in a NLHE tournament. First hand I find is AQ suited. I raise pot, I get called by A9. Flop comes 994 so of course I get busted. The A9 call preflop was horrible, but at least the three outer hit the flop hard. If I cared about rankings, etc., I would have folded and saved my last 295 in chips because at PSO I can still win the tournament with $295. But in a live tourney I would have been committed after the flop bet, so I followed through as I would there. Out I go 59th or whatever, when I probably could have hung around and finished 30th.

      One answer is larger buy-in events, but to tell you the truth, some of the players that take shots at me have ample bankroll to play any event the school could offer, so the truth is there is no way to stop it from happening. After 100 or so tournaments I had accomplished all of my PSO goals and almost quit so I could spend all of my "computer time" playing at the online paysites. Instead, I bought another computer and do both simultaneously, which really hurts me here moreso than the paysite ring games because I do not pay as much attention to the "tournament table dynamics" as I normally would. Also I play the tournaments as I would play a "real" tournament, which often leads to bustingout earlier than I would otherwise.

      For those players who take PSO seriously, whether they are the "advanced" or "beginner" skill-level, there is a lot to be learned here about proper tournament strategy and thus value in the PSO membership. If you get fixated on rankings, sponsorship points, bankroll and other BS, the experience becomes a lot less enjoyable.

      I enjoy winning and sure, I would accept a PSO sponsorship into a tournament, but I play to develop my game and if I play properly winning should take care of itself. Everything else is secondary.

      Keep your chin up.


      • #4
        Goddess: This is exactly what myself and a few others have been talking about. You just said it in a much nicer manner.

        I particularly enjoy when people say I just played that hand because I "had a feeling". Don't you,as I do find that statement particularly impressing.

        I have nothing more to say except enjoyed your post.



        • #5
          OK, I'm over a year out of date but I'm going to defend a dear friend and a great player. It was free to log into those WPO tourneys. At the time of this game Emily (muckthis) had to go visit her grandma and was in total turmoil at the break up of her marriage to her daughters Daddy. Please , please forgive her.We all have our bad days.
          I couldn't defend her at the table with this info at the time as it was nobody elses business but hers. If it's any consolation she was as pissed at winning as you werre at losing. She didn't want to be there and regretted joining. Why didn't she post and fold you may ask. Why would she when she can take it out for FREE on strangers? She'd reached crisis point PG.
          Fair enough that you got mad, but saying to watch out for her because of this is wrong, she's a great person and a good player who was having a very tragic time at the hands of her partners. Give her a chance.
          Sorry Goddess but I had to say something at the time as I knew she was about to blow.
          I still don't forgive you for what you said to me that day...
          " Kelly, if muckthis is a good player then you need lessons in poker from Clay"
          Get real!!!!! that is an insult!

          Kelly Knight


          • #6
            A comment and a suggestion

            I was thinking about this and similar posts while I was at the gym.

            There are "bad" players at PSO, and I do have a suggestion that I think could be very good, but before that I would like to make a comment about "bad" players.

            You don't always know why someone does what they do. For example, I will sometimes deliberately short stack myself in order to have a more challenging game against a pile of obviously not so good players. I'll also short stack myself from pure stupidity and carelessness too :-), but I really do sometimes do this completely on purpose.

            Unfortunately, sometimes my desire for a challenge screws up. Yesterday I called an all-in raiser with pocket two's intending to diminish my stack and bring him back up for another chance, and the stupid things turned into trips on the river. He was disgusted, as well he should be, but he didn't know that I was just as unhappy. Ow well.

            Anyway, my suggestion: how about (with a little help from the tech staff) a special class of games that you have to apply to be eligible for. Call it "The Serious Players League" and let anyone join after reading a web page that tells them the conditions under which they can remain in that league: that "dumb" play will cause warning, so many warnings will mean banned (from those games only) for a week, two weeks, a month, etc.

            Of course the players who played not seriously would have a chance to defend their play in a forum set up for this League, and other members would vote on whether or not they really were not playing seriouslly, etc.

            I think this could be good for all of us, and the discussions could be very educational.


            • #7
              Anyway, my suggestion: how about (with a little help from the tech staff) a special class of games that you have to apply to be eligible for. Call it "The Serious Players League" and let anyone join after reading a web page that tells them the conditions under which they can remain in that league: that "dumb" play will cause warning, so many warnings will mean banned (from those games only) for a week, two weeks, a month, etc.

              Please give us some examples of what a "dumb play" would be. . .


              • #8
                One person's dumb play is another persons brilliant attempt at a bluff. Never forget there almost as many strategy theories out there as there are players.



                • #9
                  Could someone tell me please

                  Where is it in this world that ALL Players play serious as you call it. I woud love to see it. PSO is a great way to see this without costing you a life savings. I am yet to see a place online where there is only great players who play entirely by the book. We all are human and as humans we have our reasons, our "feelings" and emotions all of which reflect into our play win or loose, sometimes they are right other times they are no where close to what we are taught in all the poker books in the world.

                  Dont come down on someone who just dont care after all it was thier entry fee they paid to play just as yours was paid by you and I feel even if I do get a bad beat it is the factor of luck, which no book in the world teaches cause none can.

                  I came to this school I was one of the worst and stat wise I am still one of the worst,, but also when I came here I had lost six thousand dollars playing online poker. Today I am playing online and applying some of the concepts which I have learned here and instead of refills on my account the site is sending me checks instead.

                  Some of us are serious players we just dont know everything that professional players and dealers of holdem know, that is why we are here to learn and to share our experiences and that is why no one should down another for trying to do that wether they realize they are doing it or not. The comment I dont care, well if they truely did not care why would they be in a site they pay for to learn in the first place or a site they pay to play on, after all yahoo and the school itself as well as many others offer free areas to play in why pay for it.

                  That is how I feel, and bad beats, we all get them, I was beat a few weeks ago with aces over jacks full house when a fourth jack fell for my opponent on the river.


                  • #10
                    I am new here and have had my share of wonderment at what people will call or raise with. However these same type of people may be sitting across from me at a tourney sometimes. So, instead of getting mad about it, I chalk it up to a learning experience and check my odds again at the probability of what occured. Sometimes it is simply amazing, however it is called gambling for a reason, and the experience of getting my butt kicked by a pair of 2's when I have AKs is a valuable lesson.


                    • #11
                      I’m amazed how many people at this school think that if they follow all the lessons about outs and odds, they SHOULD WIN if they have a good pre-flop or flopped hand. And, how DARE anyone call or raise, even though they are willing to pay for the Turn and River to develop their hand.

                      Also, the game is played with 7-cards. What this means is, the hand is not won by anybody until the 5th street (River) card is shown and the betting is over. If you’re holding 4 As after the flop, I can still beat you with a straight-flush. So, let’s see if I got this right. You have 4-As on the flop, I continue to call and maybe raise, and then, I hit my straight flush on the River, you would call this a bad beat?

                      As for “bad beats”, there ’s no such thing. The term was created by losers to make them feel better about losing a hand. So stop the whining about so-called bad-beats and understand that losing a good hand to a better one, even if it’s on the river, is all part of the game. And while you’re at it, don’t be a smart-ass about it, accept the fact that you got beat by a better hand, and do so graciously.

                      Ready to play heads-up with anyone at anytime!
                      Do you dare?


                      • #12
                        Um, I am new here, but if there is to be a seperate 'experts room' set up where you must 'qualify' to play, AND where your play is monitored for transgressions, I would LOVE to play there...with a few caveats of course...

                        1) I would need a list of ALL plays considered 'bad', including detailed circumstances when given 'bad plays' MIGHT be acceptable, and the various expectations of the appointed monitors.

                        For Example: In HE, can I play 56 suited from the button ONLY when there are 4 or more players in an unraised pot? Does this hand become 'illegal' if the hand is not suited? Will the nominally well known tendencies of my opponents preclude me from playing certain boarderline hands in the eyes of the arbiters...etc...etc...

                        In short, a detailed method of play MUST be established. In the event that there are differant styles, all the proposed arbiters MUST submit the intimate details of their particular playing style before rendering judgement upon the play of others. ALL the censurable plays an arbiter considers actionable MUST be listed in detail, or else how would we new people know if we are doing wrong?

                        And...without detailed descriptions of the arbiters' various playing styles how could we find out if they are dispensing even handed judgements?

                        2) All PLAYERS in the proposed 'experts room' would have to submit detail descriptions of THEIR playing styles and tendencies as well. This ensures that each nominal 'expert' does, in point of fact, know WHY they are doing what it is they do in each and every poker game they play. Second, the various manuals of playing styles would be a ready made touch stone for the room arbiters to use in case a player might SEEM to be straying from accepted playing practice.

                        As a side benefit, each potential 'expert' would most certainly find the act of complining such a book about themselves to be of immense personal value...

                        3) All player tendency manuals must be accessable to ANY member of the On Line School of Poker. This will ensure that lesser players aspiring to enter the elite ranks of the Experts Room will have a ready source of information, not only about the proper way to play the various games of poker, but also about the lofty standards expected of members of the elite poker room itself.

                        4) In order to prevent any potential whiffs of elitism which the setting up of such an 'Expert's Room' might cause, EACH AND EVERY person who must file a player tendency manual as a requirement for their entrance (as player or arbiter) MUST play AT LEAST 50% of the time in the normal Poker School tables.

                        This requirement will allow the vast quantity of information about the 'expert' playing styles of the elite poker school players to be seen by the seething masses. The elite players could become like reclusive rock stars if they are not made to venture out amongst the masses and mingle. There would never be an oppurtunity to fleece...errrr...TEST the theories and prcatices of the 'experts'. This would be altogether wrong...

                        As an alternative to spending 50% of their playing time with the huddled masses, each person who must file a player tendency manual to be considered an expert could chose instead to spend time in the Chicago area, playing live cash games in our fine local casinos. Please file all travel itineraries 30 days in advance on the message boards here, so I can arrange to 'greet' you, and guide you to our friendly gaming arenas here...


                        I have always been led to believe poker is the most democratic of games because each player is free to play as well, or as poorly, as he or she desires. It is the variations in individual play which gives poker its very vitality. As such, Bad Beats have a definate place in poker, for without them what hope would the fish of the world (myself included) have of EVER beating the best of the best? If we all played the same, who would ever win?

                        Besides, even if it WERE possible to compile the mythical player tendency manuals, would you really find a game which could be reduced to a series of rote movements necessary for 'proper play' to be in the least bit interesting? It would seem to me that such a game would, AT BEST, be gambling a la craps or roulette, and at worst a futile excersise not unlike tic-tac-toe.

                        It is most surely a cliche, but bad beats MUST be looked at philosophically, and taken in stride. I would think that a player should never forget that poker is a lifetime game, not a game of singular chances to win or lose everything there will ever be to win or lose in this lifetime. You DO get a chance to come back... You DO get a shot at revenge... They

                        Bad beats can be seen as oppurtunities- to fleece the vastly inferior player who had so rashly chosen to exhibit their incredible temerity through the mechanism of actually besting a far SUPERIOR player with mere fortune!

                        Bad beats can be seen as the last desprete refuge of the panting, bleeding, sweating, naked short stack- the same who has no further choice but to weakly hand over to the harsh ministrations of Dame Fate his last and only hope for survival!

                        Bad beats can be seen as the cruel karmic-twisted-switch-blade-in-the-guts leveling out of that AWESOME rush you rode 3 days ago to your best day in the past 2 years.

                        But above all else, no matter how many changes we would LIKE to make, Bad beats MUST be seen as...

                        Just another part of the game of Poker.


                        • #13

                          I must say that i find your post most disheartening. :evil:

                          I have hoped that this 'Experts and Serious Players Only, others need not apply" idea would catch wind at begin to soar. My mouth waters at the thought of the experts and serious players beating up on each other leaving the bulk of the membership for me to harrass, humiliate, and give lessons to at the PsychoJoe's School of Hard Knocks.

                          Your idea to so burden these players with your entrance requirements (btw, you forgot the entrance exam or did I just overlook it?) will totally derail, or at least severly delay, this wonderful idea and I will never have my nearly provate fish pond at PSO.

                          Had you contacted me prior to publishing your ideas I might have been persuaded to allow you some of the action, as I cannot play 24/7 :!:


                          • #14

                            I thought your post about 'Experts and Serious Players Only' was outstanding. However, I do not agree with your view on "Bad Beats".

                            The way bad beat is used here, implies a player (in their own mind) has the best possible poker hand for a particular play but a less experienced player called them (and paid for their cards) right down to the river, and beat them.

                            Out of the mouth of the bad beat player comes something like "the worst hand won", "what possessed you to call with A8", "you really need to take lessons", "you should have lost", "if you knew how to play. . .", etc., you get the idea.

                            Could it be that MOST pokerSchool players who refer to their loss as a "Bad Beat" are trying to ease their frustration and pain because a better and smarter player beat them?

                            TheDeacon :twisted:


                            • #15
                              Give the PSO'ers the credit they are due!! A "bad beat" is simply that, and it is not hard to know one when you see it. When a player calls you with the worst of it, and hits, it is a "bad beat". I'm not talking about calling a bet when you are behind, but you have "odds" to call. I"m talking about calling those 22 to 1 shots with 2 to 1 pot odds, and hitting it. That is a "bad beat". They happen all the time, and I think I am correct in stating that MOST PSO'ers know what they are and when they occur. Yes, there are some who chalk up every defeat to "bad beats", but the majority who speak of them are not "poor losers". They are simply pointing out that there are still 1000's who have no idea what a "bad beat", OR a "good call" is!!



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